Sunday, March 6, 2011

Queen of Heaven: The Virgin Mary, Marian Apparitions and Medjugorje

This is territory that is somewhat dangerous, and I hope that I tread properly. Coming from a sort of Catholic background, and also as someone who doesn't want to offend God, this topic had me floundering for a while. Last year or so, when LA Marzulli was posting about apparitions appearing in Egypt, some of us on the boards debated this for a while, and I think I finally realized the truth.

Throughout various points in history, the Virgin Mary has appeared as an apparition sometimes to crowds of people, and sometimes to fewer. Check out here for a list of apparitions. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_apparition. Many of them are famous, the Fatima apparition is one of the more famous ones. In this appearence, three children were given "prophetic" information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Secrets_of_F%C3%A1tima. Probably the most fascinating aspect of this appearence was the "Miracle of the Sun." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Miracle_of_the_Sun. The miracle of the sun was witnessed by many thousands of people, and more or less seems like a massive UFO sighting. Other Marian apparitions have supposedly reported similar "sun miracles" as well. See previous posts (the Betty Andreasson series), Joe Jordan CE4 Research, or LA Marzulli's blog for more on UFOs and how they may relate to Christianity.

Moving forward to more present times, for a large number of years, there have been many appearances at Medjugorje in Croatia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Me%C4%91ugorje. Every month, on the 2nd, and 25th, two women reportedly receive messages from the Virgin Mary. I have looked at many of the messages, and at first, I thought that perhaps this was the Virgin Mary. You can see the messages yourself here http://www.medjugorje.org/. (http://www.medjugorje.org/msg11.htm, http://www.medjugorje.org/msg10.htm) I would recommend praying that God show you the truth before you read too deeply, and that He would protect you spiriutally from any false teaching.

Now, let's get this out of the way. The Mary of the Bible played a very important role in bearing and birthing our Savior, Jesus Christ. She was a virgin when she became pregnant, but I believe (base on the Bible) that she later had other children. The Gospels clearly talk about Jesus' brothers and sisters, in what seems to me, a very literal sense of the word. James, who I believe wrote the Book of James in the New Testament was also the brother of Jesus. No one else claimed that as far as I know. At this point, I think it should be clear that we should admire Mary for her role in God's plan. She will probably be very greatly rewarded in Heaven. But this is where we should draw the line, Mary is not to be venerated, prayed to, or worshipped.

Now, after reading some of the Medjugorje messages, it is possible to discern that it very likely is not the Mary of the Bible. It is very tricky though, as this Medjugorje spirit is very crafty and uses words and phrases that sound very close to in line with Biblical doctrine. Here are a few. I will bold things that flew red flags, and I will comment in parentheses next to it.

Message of March 02, 2010 "Dear children, In this special time of your effort to be all the closer to my Son, to His suffering, but also to the love with which He bore it, I desire to tell you that I am with you. I will help you to triumph over errors and temptations with my grace. I will teach you love, love which wipes away all sins and makes you perfect, (alot of emphasis on what "I" will do. Also, love does not wipe away sin, only the blood of Christ Jesus can do that. One could argue that is love, and it is, but if this spirit were of God, it would hopefully mention that.) love which gives you the peace of my Son now and forever. Peace with you and in you, because I am the Queen of Peace. (Very similar to "Queen of Heaven, which made God quite angry when His people worshipped her. http://www.blueletterbible.org/search/translationResults.cfm?Criteria=Queen+of+heaven&t=NLT) Thank you." 03/02/2010



Message of April 2, 2010 to Mirjana "Dear children; Today I bless you in a special way and I pray for you to return to the right way, to my Son - your Savior, your Redeemer – to Him who gave you eternal life. (Interesting that she would mention that. Notice though, it does not give veneration to the Lord Jesus Christ, but just "my son." This sounds very Biblical, and is VERY VERY close to the truth, but for me, crucial details are omitted. Also, the Bible refers to Christ as God's Son. http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=5&t=NLT#1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is a child of God. And everyone who loves the Father loves his children, too.") Reflect on everything human, on everything that does not permit you to set out after my Son – on transience, imperfection and limitation - and then think of my Son, of His Divine infiniteness. By your surrender and prayer ennoble your body and perfect your soul. Be ready, my children. Thank you."


Message of March 25, 2010 "Dear children! Also today I desire to call you all to be strong in prayer and in the moments when trials attack you. Live your Christian vocation in joy and humility and witness to everyone. I am with you and I carry you all before my Son Jesus, (We all as Christians have a personal and direct relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ, why would Mary need to carry us to Jesus? Remember no one comes to the Father bu through the Son, but why would we need to go to His earthly mother to get to the Son? Notice also, it's "my Son Jesus, not the Lord Jesus Christ. ) and He will be your strength and support. Thank you for having responded to my call." 03/2010

Message of 25, April 2010 "Dear children! At this time, when in a special way you are praying and seeking my intercession, (again, direct relationship with Jesus and through Him, God, why does Mary need to make intercession?) I call you, little children, to pray so that through your prayers I can help you to have all the more hearts be opened to my messages. (Note, the spirit wants people's hearts opened to its messages, and not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.) Pray for my intentions. I am with you and I intercede before my Son for each of you. (Again, why is Mary interceding?) Thank you for having responded to my call." 04/2010

Message of 02, June 2010 "Dear Children, Today I call you with prayer and fasting to clear the path in which my Son (Again, a very Biblical sounding reference) will enter into your hearts. Accept me as a mother (Why? Where is this in the Bible that we are to accept Mary as Mother?) and a messenger of God's love and His desire for your salvation. Free yourself of everything from the past which burdens you, that gives you a sense of guilt, that which previously led you astray in error and darkness. Accept the light. (New Age anyone?) Be born anew in the righteousness of my Son. Thank you." 06/02/2010

Message of 25, June 2010 "Dear children! With joy, I call you all to live my messages (We are to live out our salvation to demonstrate our faith in Christ Jesus, not the messages of "Mary") with joy; only in this way, little children, will you be able to be closer to my Son. (Oh, really? Reading the Bible, and praying is the way to be closer to Jesus. Not listening to "Mary's" messages.) I desire to lead you all only to Him, and in Him you will find true peace and the joy of your heart. I bless you all and love you with immeasurable love. Thank you for having responded to my call." 06/2010

Message of 25, July 2010 "Dear children! Anew I call you to follow me with joy. (Again, a call to follow this spirit, and not the Lord Jesus.) I desire to lead all of you to my Son, your Savior. You are not aware that without Him you do not have joy and peace, nor a future or eternal life. Therefore, little children, make good use of this time of joyful prayer and surrender. Thank you for having responded to my call." 07/2010

Message of March 25, 2008 "Dear children! I call you to work on your personal conversion. You are still far from meeting with God in your heart. Therefore, spend all the more time in prayer and Adoration of Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Altar, (Taking the Blessed Sacrement will not necessarily bring me closer to God. Following ritual has never been what God is looking for, but rather a right heart. I apologize I don't have the right scripture handy. Remember, the Bible said that if you have something against someone, go make peace with them before offering your sacrifice with God.) for Him to change you and to put into your hearts a living faith and a desire for eternal life. Everything is passing, little children, only God is not passing. I am with you and I encourage you with love. Thank you for having responded to my call." 03/2008

Message of June 25, 2008 "Dear children! Also today, with great joy in my heart, I call you to follow me and to listen to my messages. (Again, "follow my messages") Be joyful carriers of peace and love in this peaceless world. I am with you and I bless you all with my Son Jesus, the King of Peace. (Not a Biblical title per se, but it sounds really good.) Thank you for having responded to my call." 06/2008

Message of April 25, 2006 "Dear children! Also today I call you to have more trust in me and my Son. He has conquered by His death and resurrection (I would almost buy this, except it says "my Son," and not "the Lord Jesus Christ") and, through me, (Here we go again.) calls you to be a part of His joy. You do not see God, little children, but if you pray you will feel His nearness. I am with you and intercede before God for each of you. Thank you for having responded to my call." 04/2006

Message of May 25, 2006 "Dear children! Also today I call you to put into practice and to live my messages that I am giving you. Decide for holiness, little children, and think of heaven. Only in this way, will you have peace in your heart that no one will be able to destroy. Peace is a gift, which God gives you in prayer. Little children, seek and work with all your strength for peace to win in your hearts and in the world. Thank you for having responded to my call." 05/2006

OK, so you should see by now what I am talking about. First, the spirit puts alot of emphasis on how it will intercede or will carry us to Jesus. It also calls for us to accept its messages. It calls itself the queen of peace, which is not a Biblical depiction of Mary at all. Nowhere in the Bible was Mary given a royal title.

Maybe this is stretching a bit, but I was reminded of the "Queen of Heaven in Jeremiah. Has Medjugorje been referred to as such? Yep, http://www.medjugorje.org/rosary.htm.

Also, why would we need to do anything through Mary? She died, long ago. I believe she is, or will be in Heaven, but she is basically at this point dead, like Paul, Christ's disciples and the later Apostles. None of them have come back to give messages, and they did the most to send forth the Gospel. All this to say, these people are getting messages from someone who is dead at the moment. Let's take a look at a few Bible passages:

Isaiah 8:19 - 20 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Isa&c=8&v=1&t=NLT#top

So why are you trying to find out the future by consulting mediums and psychics? Do not listen to their whisperings and mutterings. Can the living find out the future from the dead? Why not ask your God?

"Check their predictions against my testimony," says the LORD. "If their predictions are different from mine, it is because there is no light or truth in them.


2 Corinthians 11:14-15 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Cr&c=11&t=NLT#14

But I am not surprised! Even Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light.

So it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers. In the end they will get every bit of punishment their wicked deeds deserve.

and of course, a favorite of many in this realm, and good advice too. Ask the spirits:

1 John 4:1 - 3 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=1Jo&c=4&v=1&t=NLT#top

Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world.

This is the way to find out if they have the Spirit of God: If a prophet acknowledges that Jesus Christ became a human being, that person has the Spirit of God.

If a prophet does not acknowledge Jesus, that person is not from God. Such a person has the spirit of the Antichrist. You have heard that he is going to come into the world, and he is already here.

So even though this Marian apparation says "My son" and "Jesus" never once will you find a message where it says that Jesus Christ became a human being. You will never here it proclaim the full Gospel. If Mary were speaking to us, or God was sending us a message, wouldn't you think it would be to proclaim the exact Gospel as it has conventionally been preached? Why allow Mary's spirit to appear and tell people to follow her, and accept her? That takes away from the Gospel, and so I do not believe this spirit is of God. No matter how close some of the words come to the truth. A truth with a little lie in it is still not the truth.

The Apostle Paul had this to say if someone proclaimed a Gospel that was different than the one he and the other Apostles preached.

Galatians 1:6 - 9 http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Gal&c=1&t=NLT#6

I am shocked that you are turning away so soon from God, who in his love and mercy called you to share the eternal life he gives through Christ. You are already following a different way

that pretends to be the Good News but is not the Good News at all. You are being fooled by those who twist and change the truth concerning Christ.

Let God's curse fall on anyone, including myself, who preaches any other message than the one we told you about. Even if an angel comes from heaven and preaches any other message, let him be forever cursed.

I will say it again: If anyone preaches any other gospel than the one you welcomed, let God's curse fall upon that person.

As if the Bible wasn't clear enough on the matter, Bill Myers and David Wimbish have more to add. From their book "The Dark Side of the Supernatural." What they have to say pertains more to angels specifically, but could and I think should pertain to any spirit. Not to mention that angels can take many forms.

page 28

* When an angel seeks to draw attention to himself and not to God, he is no angel.

* When an angel gladly accepts the adoration of men and women, you can be sure that he didn't come to us from Heaven.


* When an angel tells us that he will answer our prayers and give us what we desire, he is attempting to usurp God's authority, and he is not to be trusted.

* When an angel tells us that we can be equal to God, he is no angel.

He also says on page 128

Author Phil Phillips gives us five practical scriptural methods to "test the spirits." He writes that an authentic messenger from God

1) always proclaims-and never denies-that Jesus is God's Son and He came to earth in fleshly form;

2) always exalts Jesus Christ and points toward His atonement for sin, which He made when He died on the cross;

3) never encourages divination or occult practices;

4) never contradicts Scripture or dismisses its importance;

5) never undermines the majesty, glory, or holiness of almighty God, King of the Universe.

Just a few notes. The bolded items are something that the Medjugorje Apparition always fails. It always asks for people's prayers, and proclaims Jesus as my Son, not God's son. Read enough of the messages and you will see that while it sounds like it's in line with the Bible and these guidelines, it is not always so. We know God is always consistent in His messages and His messengers should be too. If they're not, they aren't His messengers. The key here is to test the spirits, and use discernment in reading those messages.

So, do you, or anyone you know believe these messages are really from the Mary of the Bible? Look through them again. Do they clearly, and proudly proclaim the Gospel? If not, then perhaps it's time to consider that these messages are from someone other than God or the Virgin Mary. Remember, Satan is very clever, and a master of deception. Be wary, cling the Gospel and continue to seek God's truth in your life.

Peace, and God Bless you all!





Update 8-27-11


Some good podcasts by russ dizdar on catholicism.


Catholics

http://preemptionbroadcast.podomatic.com/enclosure/2011-08-22T16_35_12-07_00.mp3

http://preemptionbroadcast.podomatic.com/enclosure/2011-08-23T16_14_38-07_00.mp3

http://preemptionbroadcast.podomatic.com/enclosure/2011-08-24T16_15_18-07_00.mp3

http://preemptionbroadcast.podomatic.com/enclosure/2011-08-25T18_00_58-07_00.mp3

http://revelationsradionetwork.com/



33 comments:

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  2. Well, I do have an issue with Mary as an intercessor, that is true.

    The other thing I have an issue with is that the spirit uses vague terms like "My Son," or Jesus. It never says that "The Lord Jesus Christ" or "God's Son." It sounds very Biblical, but it's not. Also the spirit places alot of emphasis on accepting it, and its teachings rather than procaliming the Gospel.

    I'm adding some more info up top so check it out.

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  6. Pilgrim,

    Hope all is well. Thanks for your comments thus far.

    I applaud that you’ve gone back and looked through those. I confess that I haven’t looked through every single one myself, though I've read a number of them, and picked many of them apart.

    However, in the interest of discussion, I would like to just look at a few of the points.

    This one is interesting, but I have issue with “Mary” saying “I bless you.” I will concede that she does indeed mention the Trinity. This one I will remain neutral on, for now.

    “I bless you with the motherly blessing in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” So she does acknowledge the Holy Trinity.


    Me: here are a couple others that you mentioned:

    “Dear children! During these days my Lord is allowing me to be able to intercede more graces for you....” June 19, 1986

    Me: Why does the focus have to be on her? (see the above section from the dark side of supernatural.) And she also says “my Lord.” I have to ask, which Lord? The lord of this world (satan) or the LORD of Lords, King of Kings?


    “The time has come when what my Lord desired has been fulfilled...” January 8, 1987

    Me: Same thing.

    Me: This next one, I find interesting. Do you perhaps have the rest of what she said? What was she going to have them do for Jesus Christ?

    “Dear children! Today I am inviting you to do something concrete for Jesus Christ...” May 17, 1984

    Me: This one is also a good one, and at the moment I am ill equipped to refute it. For now. Do you have the rest?

    “Dear children! Today, when you celebrate Christ, the King of all that is created, I desire for Him to be the King of your lives...” November 25, 2007


    Me: Next, the repentance of sin is the main tenet of the Gospel, yes. Again, why is it through Mary? It does also say “repent”, but repent to who? The local priest? To her? To Jesus Christ? Who we are repenting to is a MAJOR point to consider. Again, this one seems that the main focus is on “Mary” and the repentance of sin is only secondary.

    Me: Also look at these red flags:

    Dear children; Today, through me, the good Father calls you to, with your soul filled with love, set out on a spiritual visitation. Dear children, be filled with grace, sincerely repent for your sins and yearn for the good. Yearn also in the name of those who have not come to know the perfection of the good. You will be more pleasing to God. Thank you. May 2, 2010


    Me: Here is the last one you raised:

    Dear children; Today, with a motherly heart, I call you to learn to forgive, completely and unconditionally. You suffer injustice, betrayals and prosecutions, but by that you are closer to and dearer to God. My children, pray for the gift of love. Only love forgives all, as my Son forgives – follow Him. I am among you and am praying that when you come before your Father you can say: 'Here I am Father, I followed your Son, I had love and forgave with the heart, because I believed in your judgment and trusted in you.' Thank you. September 2, 2009.


    Me: Again, why does Mary call them? This spirit is attracting attention to itself more than it is to God. Right there is a major clue.


    Me: On a side note, have you read Jim Tetlow’s “Messages from Heaven”? I have yet to read it, but it deals with Marian messages in greater detail than I have addressed. I confess I have not read it, but would like to.

    Me: Also, if you don’t mind my asking, are you Catholic?

    Anyways, Peace and talk to you soon.

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  7. I'd suggest that another phrase worth looking at is in that last "message" quoted by Pilgrim where "she" says...

    I am among you and am praying that...

    So Mary is "among us"?

    This is a clear 'red flag' in that it unmistakably ascribes an attribute of deity to Mary. Like you said, Mary died, just like all the other prophets and apostles and people of faith. She cannot communicate with the living, nor does she have some kind special access to the Throne of God. Only Jesus is our intercessor and mediator between God and man...

    The true nature of this spirit is further evidenced by the fact that "she" speaks to a set of six "chosen people", who are effectively mediums, believed to be receiving special, esoteric knowledge that they will reveal to the world at a specific time. This is text book occultic activity.

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  9. Pilgrim,

    Peace to you my friend, thanks for sticking around thus far to discuss this! I appreciate the talk even if we are not wholly in agreement. I'm just gonna rip the bandaid off, my intent is not to offend you, but show you (and others) why I'm so cautious on this thing.

    I don’t want to pick on you, but I have a few more points to talk about I guess. Stick with me.

    At Medjugorje, there may well be healings and miracles of a sort, and I would not doubt that they are real. But we have to ask ourselves one question: do these miracles at Medjugorje bring people to Jesus Christ for salvation? Are people giving their lives to Jesus Christ? Are people going to see the spirit of Mary, or encounter the Spirit of the Living God?


    You brought up something I want to specifically talk about…

    “A false spirit does not produce good fruits. satan is incapable of goodness.”

    I would completely disagree. Lynn Dickie, a former New Ager/Channeler/Reiki Healer used to use her energy “powers” which she got from spiritual entities. She healed people with this energy. But, she became a Christian, and when this happened, these same entities turned on her revealing their true nature. She was only able to be free of them with here relationship to Jesus Christ.

    She healed people, but it was with the power of dark spirits. So, demons allowed her and used her to perform “good” acts. I would recommend that you search for her testimony online.

    This brings to mind some scripture. It is specifically talking about Antichrist, but it should serve to caution us in accepting signs and miracles, even “good” ones.

    2 Thessalonians 2:8 - 10

    Then the man of lawlessness will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will consume with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

    This evil man will come to do the work of Satan with counterfeit power and signs and miracles.

    He will use every kind of wicked deception to fool those who are on their way to destruction because they refuse to believe the truth that would save them.

    So God will send great deception upon them, and they will believe all these lies.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=2Th&c=2&v=1&t=NLT#top


    Next, if one part of “Mary’s” message is unacceptable, then they all are. If one is not in line with the Gospel, the whole batch is bad.

    My relationship is with Jesus Christ directly. Salvation is through Him alone, Mary had a very high honor but I am not saved because of any relationship with her. She is greatly blessed, and honorable, but Jesus is the way the truth and the light.

    If “Mary” is truly bringing people to Jesus Christ the Son of God (and not “her” Son) then I would have to think some more, but I am confused as to why Jesus would need Mary’s help at this point. I hear reports of those in the Arab world coming to salvation in Christ because HE is coming to Muslims personally in their dreams. Mary is not part of the equation.

    All this to say Pilgrim…If Medjugorje leads you closer to Jesus Christ, God’s Son, then so be it, but I urge great caution. TEST the spirits. Also, recall that Mary never was raised from the dead, therefore anyone talking to “Mary” are speaking with a spirit of someone dead. Why would Christ, who fulfilled the law, lead us to break the law by sending a spirit of someone who has yet to be resurrected?


    Deuteronomy 18:10 – 11

    For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering. [fn] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling or sorcery, or allow them to interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft,

    or cast spells, or function as mediums or psychics, or call forth the spirits of the dead.

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Deu&c=18&t=NLT#10

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  10. D, well said.

    I have to admit that I had a hard time coming to this realization, and used to think that Mary had special rights, etc. I used to pray "Hail Mary" and so this is especially hard. The more I compare God's word to this spirit and it's activities, the more I think this Medjugorje thing is bad news.

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  13. Just because it said "in the name of the Fatjer, the Son, and the Holy Spirit" doesn't mean it's acknowledging the Holy Trinity. Mormons don't believe in the Trinity, but rather that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are three different beings with the same person. What would you call that? Polytheism. Which, of course, is pf the devil. There's a part in the Bible that says of anyone speaks of other gods, it is the devil speaking. That being said, mormons still say, "in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." So the apparition saying that proves absolutely nothing.

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  14. *I meant to say the same purpose

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  15. good call Madison!

    yes, people are repenting of their sins at Medjugorje, but...who are they repenting them to? To Mary? Or are they repenting to God through Jesus Christ's sacrifical death and resurrection?

    So as Madison says, just mentioning the names/titles doesn't mean we throw caution to the wind. Even New Agers follow "Jesus" but it's a "Jesus energy" or a different Jesus rather than the Son of God in human flesh.

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  16. Shalom Pilgrim,

    Pt 1

    I have a few questions, more to inspire critical thinking than anything else. Please take no offense, as none is intended. I would like to just question the logic of Mary as intercessor and her alleged apparitions.

    While you are correct that Mary may have had a great role in the early church, that role would have (and should have) concluded after her death. The apostles’ ministries ended with their deaths, why should Mary be able to continue after hers? Why isn’t the Apostle Paul (probably the most passionate about Christ and faith in Him) appearing to people and speaking to people in the same way? Why not Peter? Why not Lazarus?

    Why does Mary have to appear to people to foster repentance? In some other “apparitions” where repentance is urged Why is it that Jesus Himself is appearing to Muslims in dreams? Why doesn’t He send Mary to do it if she has a role to draw people to God?

    Continuing on, the wedding feast was happening on earth in a purely physical sense. Because He responded to her requests at a wedding feast is not, in my opinion, solid grounds to build a doctrine of asking Mary to intercede for us to God/Christ. If we do that, we stand on sandy ground rather than the rock that is Jesus Christ. After all, what would happen if Mary asked people to do something that blatantly contradicted scripture, yet appeared good? (in my opinion the apparition already does)

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  17. Pt 2

    We are all invited to Heaven, and Jesus Christ is the only way to get there. Period. End of story. We may indeed hear the call of good from unexpected places. Usually those places though are founded on solid Biblical doctrine and the Gospel. (which I guess is solid Biblical doctrine). But God uses LIVING and breathing people to preach the Gospel, not apparitions of Mary.

    In the rare cases where a physical human being (like you or I) is not proclaiming the Gospel it’s usually Jesus Christ Himself. I would have expected an angel. But we don’t see that (that I’ve heard of). Jesus revealed Himself to Paul. Jesus reveals Himself to many in the world even now. He is alive in flesh and blood now, but He has a glorified body. Mary does not.

    Jesus NEVER elevated the status of Mary in the Bible, why would He do it later on? In fact, He de-emphasized her role (perhaps because He knew people would try to give her more relevance than she should have.

    {Mat 12:46 NLT} - "As Jesus was speaking to the crowd, his mother and brothers were outside, wanting to talk with him."
    {Mat 12:47 NLT} - "Someone told Jesus, "Your mother and your brothers are outside, and they want to speak to you.""
    {Mat 12:48 NLT} - "Jesus asked, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?""
    {Mat 12:49 NLT} - "Then he pointed to his disciples and said, "These are my mother and brothers."
    {Mat 12:50 NLT} - "Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother!""

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=12&t=NLT#46

    {Mar 3:31 NLT} - "Jesus' mother and brothers arrived at the house where he was teaching. They stood outside and sent word for him to come out and talk with them."
    {Mar 3:32 NLT} - "There was a crowd around Jesus, and someone said, "Your mother and your brothers and sisters are outside, asking for you.""
    {Mar 3:33 NLT} - "Jesus replied, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?""
    {Mar 3:34 NLT} - "Then he looked at those around him and said, "These are my mother and brothers."
    {Mar 3:35 NLT} - "Anyone who does God's will is my brother and sister and mother.""

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mar&c=3&t=NLT#31


    Pilgrim, please consider all of the points from the Bible and ask God to show you the truth. He will if you truly seek His will in this matter. You have direct access to the throne room of the Most High God, Creator of the universe, through His Son Jesus Christ. Ask in the name of Christ, He will show you. With this access, why is there any need for the spirit of Mary to do anything for us?

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  18. Pt 3

    Pilgirm, don't just take me at what I say. Don't just accept what Jim Tetlow says (in the book i never read, but heard covered in an interview).

    Follow what God says. Pray, read His word. Seek God's truth, not what I say. I try to stay true to the Word, but I am imperfect.

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  20. Hey Pilgrim,

    I guess in the interest of peace, let's agree to disagree. We obivously both have good evidence that supports each viewpoint, we just happen to disagree on that evidence.

    So, long story short I guess what I am advising is that we need to exercise great caution whenever ANY spirit makes an appearance. The Bible tells us to test the spirits, and gives us guidelines on how to do it.

    If Medjugorje is really Mary, then testing her would be Biblical. She should be happy that we are following scripture. If she passes the Biblical test, then that's another story. To my knowledge no one (OK, no pun intended) has put her to the test.

    So, my OPINION based on a few pieces of evidence is that Medjugorje and other Marian apparitions are not really Mary. You disagree, and that's perfectly OK, let's disagree, but in peace.

    My last word on this matter is that Christians (and everyone else) need to exercise great caution when the spirit world manifests in ours. No matter who seems to be appearing, we are commanded to exercise caution and wisdom.

    Anyways Pilgrim, I appreciate the talk so far. Stick around, I do hope to hear from you on other matters in the future. But on the Mary point let's move on. We'll likely never agree.

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  22. Shalom.

    This treads dangerously close to the heresy of Mormonism.

    God the Holy Spirit has no spouse. Where in the Bible does it say that God has a spouse? God does not have sex. God did not have sex with Mary. He conceived Christ through the Holy Spirit, miraculously. That's it. No sex involved. That's why they call it an immaculate conception, and this is what qualified Mary as virgin when she birthed our Lord.

    I have indeed looked through a number of Medugorje's messages and found that they take away from the one true God, and draw attention to this Marian Appariton.

    To put this issue to rest, we are not to pray to Mary. Jesus Christ showed us himself how to pray. He did not instruct us to go to Mary, His earthly mother. this is what He said.

    [Mat 6:9 NLT] - "Pray like this: Our Father in heaven, may your name be honored."
    [Mat 6:10 NLT] - "May your Kingdom come soon. May your will be done here on earth, just as it is in heaven."
    [Mat 6:11 NLT] - "Give us our food for today,"
    [Mat 6:12 NLT] - "and forgive us our sins, just as we have forgiven those who have sinned against us."
    [Mat 6:13 NLT] - "And don't let us yield to temptation, but deliver us from the evil one."

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/Bible.cfm?b=Mat&c=6&t=NLT#9

    If you can show me, CHAPTER, TEXT and VERSE, where it says in the Bible that we are to pray to Mary (or any other saint) as an intercessor, then I'll take you up on the offer to go to Medugorje.

    Until then, I will not trust anything this, or any other Marian apparition says. We were warned not to trust ANY spirit that appears unless it meet specific criteria.

    This spirit's sayings sound Biblical, but are not. There are many of them that are, at best ambiguous, and at worst draw people into Mary worship. I don't believe God would glorify His Son by placing Him at His right hand, only to let Mary grab some glory on the side by appearing and attracting pilgrims. Or allowing her to intercede.

    The whole Old Testament points to the revealing of Jesus Christ as Messiah, and the whole New Testament focuses on how Christians should behave until He returns and what we need to watch out for.

    From Medjugorje Dec 25 2000
    "I call you, in a special way to say your ‘yes’ to Jesus."

    Which Jesus? The New Age "sonanda" Jesus? The Mormon Jesus that is Satan's half brother? The Muslim Jesus who didn't die on the cross, but was rescued by God?

    Or the Jesus of the Bible, the son of the Living God?


    Pilgrim, this may be devisive, and may offend you, but I am telling you the truth out of love. Pray about this to the God of the Bible, in the name of Jesus Christ. Ask Him to show you the truth. Leave Mary out of it. This is between you, and God.

    Peace and Love,

    No one

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  24. Dear children, I am coming to you in this your time, to direct the call to eternity to you. This is the call of love. I call you to love, because only through love will you come to know the love of God. Many think that they have faith in God and that they know his laws. They try to live according to them, but they do not do what is the most important; they do not love Him. My children, pray and fast. This is the way which will help you to open yourselves and to love. Only through the love of God is eternity gained. I am with you. I will lead you with the motherly love. Thank you for having responded. Medjugorje message, October 2, 2006

    Regrettably, there are some who listen to another voice and choose to attempt to scatter those who are called by the Mother of Jesus, who prefer to cast aspersions against the conversions and new life emanating from Medjugorje, challenging and doubting the work of the Holy Spirit, even in the face of the many miracles happening there. Some even go as far as to say that it is the devil’s work that brings about the resurrection of new life at Medjugorje, but they forget the truth of the words of Jesus when he says: “If satan is divided against himself, how can his kingdom stand?”

    satan cannot bring new life, only death; he is not with Jesus, only against him; he does not gather with Jesus or his Blessed Mother, he only scatters.

    In her Medjugorje messages Our Lady warns on several occasions that satan is strong and desires to disrupt her salvation work, but we can be assured from today’s gospel reading that the kingdom of God is present when the strength of satan is defeated through the Sacrament of mercy and reconciliation, so visible at Medjugorje. The “strong man” is defeated daily by “someone stronger” at Medjugorje. The spoils are shared with the penitent who is given a new heart and a new spirit; new strength to stand and gather alongside Jesus and Mary.

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  25. I’m a catholic. I started going back to church with my mother, mainly to be with her as she was sick and getting older. I lost her last year and I fell into a deep depression. I tried to keep the word of God by watching Mass on TV. I had been battling a family member on Catholicism and was in doubt of my faith, what (very) little I knew. So I started to investigate my faith, his faith and other beliefs. I found that I would never leave my faith. I am convicted. Then the subject of Blessed Virgin Mary apparitions arose. I knew very little here too and was afraid these were demonic. I studied the saints, which were involved in an apparition and what happened in their lives. I still had doubts. Then I came across Medjugorje. This is happening today? Oh let me investigate, I said. After two weeks of studying these phenomena, I came to believe this is not demonic. It couldn’t be. It spoke and had an essence of God. I spoke to God and said, If it is from you oh God, how I would love to go to Medjugorje and feel this for myself, but I knew I couldn’t go financially and I also battle my husband with my faith. This took place on a Saturday. After reading the bible, I came across readings that made me stop feeling sorry for myself and go to the Father’s house to worship Him. So I picked myself up and went to church (St James Parish in California) the next day. After mass, I was gracefully surprised when the priest said Ivan, the seer from Medjugorje was coming to my church the next evening and he would have an apparition while we prayed. I felt a warm surge of electricity go through my body from my hair follicles to the tips of my fingers and toes. I fell to my knees and sobbed thanking God for my sign. If I couldn’t go to Medjugorje, Medjugorje was coming to me. It was a grace given from God for defending the Blessed Mother’s honor. I didn’t expect to see Mother Mary as I’m not the chosen one, but I definitely felt closer to God that night and ever since. I have testimony that my life has changed. When I’m in argument with my family member of my beliefs, or I question scripture, the next day in Mass the same scripture is spoken. Coincidence? I don’t believe in coincidence. I trust in Jesus…he is leading me the way. I thank Mother Mary for shaking me up with positive messages, like a mother would, when I needed it.

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  26. Soy,

    thank you for your comments. I won't renew the debate here any further. All I can say is read the article and read the chat Pilgrim and I had about the matter. My view won't change.

    The only thing I would like to bring up is this. Not all spiritual manifestations are good. Satan and his messengers disguise themselves as angels of light, how do we know Medjugorje isn't one of the enemy's?

    Just because they are there, and "good" things happen, and some people "feel" closer to God doesn't mean anything. Our relationship with God is not based on feelings, it's based on faith.

    That's why I emphasize that we should be testing the spirits. 1 John 4, the spirit should be proclaiming that Jesus Christ came in a real body, died on the cross and was resurrected. Yet all too often the spirit is directing attention and prayers to itself. A spirit of God would be directing worship and prayers to the one who is worthy, Jesus Christ.

    So, all I ask and suggest is that we pray, search the Bible and truly compare the things "Mary" says. And ask "Mary" the million dollar question. Test the spirits.

    Why doesn't anyone test her? I would. Just because she looks like Mary, doesn't mean she is.

    Anyways, thanks again Soy, and please read go read God's word, pray and ask Him to show you the truth.

    Peace.

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  27. What many are failing to accept is that the ONLY way to God is through Jesus Christ. Mary served her purpose and played her role and deserves respect for this but that is ALL.

    The Catholic notion that we should pray to Mary so that she'll "put in a good word" for us to Jesus is anti-Biblical and consequently anti-Christian. There's no way around it. Jesus' role as the ONLY door to God is spelled out plainly in an exact manner with a period at the end. He doesn't say "I'm the doorway to the Father buuuut if you can't reach me, leave a message with my mom and I'll get back to you."

    People that are worshipping Mary apparitions and praying to statues/pictures of Mary are unknowingly participating in idol worship. This has been one of Satan's best tricks thus far because it seems so right and in-line with the Bible.

    I challenge ANYONE to find Biblical support to pray to Mary anywhere in the Bible.

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  28. i too was raised a catholic but now im an independent protestant because most of them follow the bible an what it teaches though we all are sinners.ive studied almost all of the apparitions of mary an so far almost all of the messages are unbiblical an lead most astray.jesus said,I AM THE WAY THE TRUTH AN THE LIGHT.NO ONE COMES TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.AGAIN there is only ONE NAME under heaven whereby we must be saved.JESUS CHRIST.and again.ALL fall short of the glory of god,there is NONE not righteous,no not even one. MARY states that she needed a savior,that alone makes her a sinner,otherwise she would not have said that.further the last time she is mentioned in the bible is in acts ist chapter an never again.yes she is blessed an a rightfully so. but those apparitions from what i can tell are not from god.just praying for sinners alone does nothing worthwhile.telling them about jesus an his death an him alone saves us is what mary would be really saying if they were really from god.she is not a path to god. only jesus saves.he is the ONLY WAY.

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  29. AN I ADD,FROM THE BIBLE. DO NOT MARVEL FOR SATAN HIMSELF AN HIS DEMONS CAN TRANSFORM INTO ANGELS OF LIGHT AN PERFORM MIRACULOUS SIGNS AN WONDERS.SATAN IS VERY CRAFTY AN WILL MIX IN SOME TRUTH WITH LIES.IF HE CAN LEAD ONE PERSON TO PUT ALL THERE FAITH IN A FALSE MARY THEN HE HAS WON A HUGE VICTORY FOR HIMSELF, AN YET HE HAS LED MANY TO BE DECIEVED..THE BIBLE ALSO DECLARES NOT TO BOW DOWN,KNEEL OR WORSHIP TO ANYONE BUT GOD.YET WE SEE THAT IN ALMOST EVERY APPARITION.MARY, THE FALSE SPIRIT ALLOWS ALL OF THOSE THINGS WHICH IS ANOTHER INDICATION THAT ITS NOT FROM GOD.SURE,SOME GOOD DOES COME OUT OF THE APPEARANCES, BUT MANY ARE LOST CAUSE THEY MISS THE IMPORTANT THING.ONLY THRU JESUS CAN THEY BE TRULY SAVED.JESUS ALONE COMMITTED NO SIN.SO ONLY HE COULD TAKE AWAY OURS.NOW THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DECLARES MARY SINLESS WHICH IS A FALSE DOCTRINE AN SO MANY WORSHIP HER WHICH AGAIN SATAN LOVES, AN HAS TAKEN MANY WITH HIM.THINK ABOUT IT.OPEN YOUR EYES.PRAY TO JESUS AN ASK HIM AN ABOVE ALL TRUST IN HIM AN HIM ALONE TO TAKE AWAY YOUR SINS AS ONLY HE CAN.READ LUKE AN READ THE REAL MARY AN WHAT SHE SAID.MY LORD AN MY SAVIOR.

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  30. Message 1:

    I do appreciate this site and the things that it talks about, since you can rarely hear discussion about this kind of thing in church. But I would like to point out another alternative to the whole "is it Mary or an unclean spirit" argument. There is also a more down-to-earth possibility - it's a lie.

    It's true that we can test a spirit by asking it if Jesus came in the flesh. If it will not confess this truth we know it is unclean (and this should be done in this case and all others). On the other hand, testing a person is not as easy. A person can confess Christ and yet still tell you a lie.

    Why would these people lie? There are a multitude of reasons, some of them selfish, others misguided but unselfish. Perhaps they want to build people up, give them faith and bolster their hopes? They are surely touching people’s lives, many people seemingly for the better. But sin is subtle, believe me I know, and things can start out innocently enough, until you let your guard down and the earth erodes out from under your feet.

    What is going to be the end result of this Maryology? It’s been gradually progressing for years. I remember reading about Carl Jung and how exited he was when the Assumption was made dogma by the pope. He was so happy that they had finally come in line with his mystical quaternity idea. God just wasn’t complete for him until that happened. Of course, he was still arguing with his priest who denied that Mary was God or a part of God, even though at that point in Catholic belief they had decided that Mary never sinned and was raised up into heaven without dying. Maybe in time they will come around to Jung’s way of thinking. Hopefully not.

    Or imagine what might happen if it is a lie and it’s exposed. All those people that put their faith in a false miracle might lose their faith once more. Even people who didn’t put their faith in it might lose their faith, believing perhaps that they can’t trust anything the church says.

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  31. Message 2:

    The best way to decide how to react to these messages is to consult scripture. And I think you really nailed it with your reference to Deuteronomy 18:10 – 11. I feel like the conversation should have ended there (I say that after bringing back up a conversation from 2011...).

    There are many scriptures in the Old Testament which show God's displeasure with mediums and psychics and with the people who consult them, and some which portray it as good when they are "put away" or no longer used. For instance: Lev. 20:6, Leviticus 19:31, Leviticus 20:27, 2 Kings 23:24, 2 Chronicles 33:6, and I Samuel 28.

    It does not matter if these people can legitimately speak to the dead (Mary) or not. I believe we can all agree that not everyone who claims they can see the future can actually see the future, and not everyone who claims they can speak with the dead can actually speak to the dead. In fact, hopefully we can agree that almost all such people are charlatans. Regardless, they are still mediums, and Christians and Jews are forbidden from consulting them, along with fortune-tellers, sorcerers, witches, necromancers and familiars – real or not.

    I Chron. 10:13-14 has this to say:
    "So Saul died for his breach of faith. He broke faith with the Lord in that he did not keep the command of the Lord, and also consulted a medium, seeking guidance. 14 He did not seek guidance from the Lord. Therefore the Lord put him to death and turned the kingdom over to David the son of Jesse."

    Maybe people are just still too ashamed of what they’ve done in their lives, or too flabbergasted that God would want a relationship with Mankind, fallen as he is, or perhaps they just don’t have enough faith to believe it’s really that easy. We should be appreciating that, and taking this amazing opportunity, not trying to find someone in God’s good graces to help us with him.

    We are meant to seek guidance from the Lord himself, not from Mary or other spirits of the dead. Their time has ended in this world. But our God is with us always - He is, He was, and He is to come. He sent his Son to die for us on the cross so that he could be our mediator, ambassador, intercessor, savior and even friend. It’s an amazing gift to be able to go before the Lord directly with our praise, our petitions, and our apologies, and to have him receive us – and with love, at that!

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