Sunday, May 27, 2012

Starstruck: Are the Kachinas Really Ancient Aliens or Beings From the Stars?


34:00 - Chris O’Brien: “the Zuni are a very interesting culture in that they’re one of the few cultures that really have not opened up to the rest of the world about their star knowledge traditions. Most of this type of information is very closely held by the Natives. I really find it intriguing that this is the time in history that we’re now we’re starting to learn more and more about their star knowledge.


Exactly what “star knowledge” is it that we’re learning from the Zuni people? If it’s very closely held, why share it now and with Ancient Aliens theorists? Why not instead share it with peer reviewed astronomers?

If the Zuni (and other tribes) had star knowledge that was accurate in any way, where are the all of the Native astronomers? Dennis Lamenti of the Navajo/Zuni bemoans the fact that he is only “one among too few Native American astronomers. In fact, as far as he knows, he is the only one in the contiguous United States with or working toward a Ph.D. in astronomy.”

Surely with the Zuni’s advanced star knowledge, they would be able to contribute greatly to this field. In fact, Lamenti is going out of his way to reach out to any Native student who wants to follow in his foot steps. This is the perfect chance for any Zuni to put their star knowledge to good use. Yet, no one seems to have stepped up.

“Lamenti would like to make himself available to any Native American students interested in astronomy or Native students who would like to discuss their challenges, need advice getting into graduate school, or just staying in school. He can be contacted through Indiana University’s webpage”

This is the perfect opportunity for Zuni star knowledge to make its debut.


Narrator: The tribe’s creators and protectors are supernatural beings from the sky.


The Zuni, like other tribes including the Hopi and some others believe that people lived underground in the dark. This is considered the previous world, and prior to that, people lived in other less desirable worlds. They then believe they were led out into the present world by the creator whom they call Awonawilona. Awonawilona was not from the sky, but rather the Zuni believe that he created the sky and earth, etc. In short, Awonawilona is the closest thing to the pre-existant creator God as revealed in the Bible (though not personalized), though there are differences to be sure. In no way does Awonawilona come from the sky.

Awonawilona does create two humans or human-like beings, brothers but the origin of the human race itself is ambiguous. Most of the Zuni myths that are available seem to insinuate that people and other beings already existed somehow, then were led out of the underground by Awonawilona’s sons. Again, nowhere is it told that humans were created by people from the sky.

“Creation culminates as the Twins lead humans and creatures out of Mother Earth and into the Daylight World.”


36:00 Dan Simplicio (SP?) – [referring to a petroglyph] This one’s kind of interesting here. I’d imagine it was created in the last century. From this design you can see the star figure. Celestial images are often times depicted in a lot of our cultural pictographs. This is one where it depicts this star. It could be the supernova of the crab nebula.


It certainly isn’t a stretch that any civilization would record a supernova. Why not? It’s a memorable event, and many cultures have recorded such things. The problem here is Simplicio’s comment. He believed that the glyph was made within the last century or so and that it depicts the supernova of the Crab Nebula. How he came to that conclusion is anyone’s guess, but the problem with this theory though is that this supernova happened in 1054 and not in the last century. The only explanation is that he is mistaken about what it represents, or it was a “remake” of an older glyph.


Cliff: Our Zuni mythology in the prayer system in the ritualistic protocols talk about these people that came over here and told us actually how to live our lives. As beings, guide people.


The people that Clifford Mahooty is referring to are Kachinas, and his theory (and that of others) is that the Kachinas were aliens.

There’s really no problem with this claim, that the Zuni were contacted by beings. Due to the prayer and ritualistic nature of Zuni interaction with their “visitors,” the most simple conclusion to reach is that the Zuni have not contacted alien beings, but rather spirits. In fact, Clifford Mahooty, who was featured on Ancient Aliens, says as much in an interview on the Open Minds Radio Podcast.

Take a look at his statements keeping an eye out for bits that would deal with a spiritual phenomena. Mr. Mahooty adds further clarification to emphasize that he believes the beings are from space. Emphasis added.

Time stamp: 34:50 – 36:00

Alejandro Rojas: Now the Kachinas, would those be similar to saints I guess? Just a lot of different types of Kachinas that have different meanings?

Clifford Mahooty: Yes, if you look at some of the others, like for example, the sainthood. Or if you look at Greek mythology, they have the gods of war or the gods of this and that. But then the Kachinas represent many, many different forms of what their orders are. And also for the way that the Zuni has to communicate with the other than things than here on planet earth. So they are also treated as messengers. Looked upon as messengers or keepers of the ways of how the Zuni is supposed to be carrying out their lives here on this planet.”

Time stamp: 38:02 – 38:42

CM: It’s a very complex ceremony. The way to understand it, is that you have to really understand the ritual. Because a lot of these are sung in a chant type form. The rituals that are carried out and the Kachinas are dressed like those visitors that came to our planet.

Time stamp: 44:50 - 49:58 [note that he doesn’t answer the question about what the other Zunis believe]

AR: When you had mentioned earlier that the Kachinas, that part of these rituals were about remembering the visitors coming here from space, do the Zuni then, as a group believe that these were people from elsewhere coming to teach and share with the humans?

CM: The original visitors were the actual beings that came from different parts of the universe. The way that they used to come here was that, and I’ve stated this many times, it’s like that “Star Trek” remember when they, that beam me up Scotty type thing. They would appear from a different dimension and appear here. When they performed whatever they need to do, to carry on for mankind, for the Zuni mankind to carry on their lives here, then after that they would disappear again.

According to my teachings of the Kachina priesthood, this went on for a number of years until the population was declining at a rate. Because these people, whether it was by abduction, or whether it was by people just falling in love with those beings that came over here to perform their ceremonies with song, dance and good rituals, I mean blessings. Every culture whether it be the four-legged creatures for food, like the deer. They were also the providers of the rain. The rain is a number one requirement in the Zuni world for agriculture. So when these people, things, beings, whatever used to come here to be among the Zuni people, they were losing too many. They had a summit maybe. Between those gods, they used to call them gods. They’re referred to as gods and the priesthood of the villages at that time, there were many. There’s got to be some way we have to adopt here so we don’t go through this whole thing of abduction or losing our community.

AR: the Zunis were losing people?

CM: Yes. The Zunis were losing people because these people would go with them. The visitors, they were from the different world.

AR: They fell in love with the visitors? Become friends or somehow the visitors would take them with?

CM: Yeah. Or another way I would interpret it is that they were abducted.

AR: Taken? Stolen?

CM: Yeah, just taken, yes. So, when they came into this truce. The brotherhood or whatever. The hieracrchy of the Kachinas and the Zuni humans at that time. They reverted to a Kachina system, but there were several different things. This was sort of a contract. There were certain things that had to be abided by, and certain things that they would provide, and things that the Zuni would have to provide. It was a contract type approach. It has overtones of what the theory of the Eisenhower connection with the aliens at that time. So you give us this, here’s what you’re gonna do, we here on the planet will do this, and we’ll have this type of a requirement on both sides. And this is according to my teachings of the Zuni elders, which was given to them by their elders. I don’t know how far back. That’s when they came up with the Kachina system.

Later on at 52:35 – 55:00

CM – My research and my interpretation of what the grandfathers told me was that these things, the Kachinas were made to look like what used to come on the earth…They are here, but they are invisible during the ceremonies and even on a daily basis. The Zuni believe in the spirits being here with them all the time. The Zuni also believe that the Kachinas are here and the only reason that they appear in the plaza as we represent them, at that time is you become them, you become them as a spirit and in what their rituals call for, you become them. It’s like an altered state kind of involvement. When you’re performing those ceremonies, you have to go through many different rituals that primarily the festing part, the cleansing part, the mindset, all that before you go in there…this information was given me by my grandfathers and my elders in their own concept and their own language.

(8/15/11 Open Minds Radio Interview with Clifford Mahooty, Zuni elder and member of the Kachina society. He has also been featured on “Ancient Aliens.”

This sounds a lot less like alien visitors and quite a bit like Dr. Michael Heiser’s “Divine Council” ( writings and also sounds quite a bit like what spirits are described as in the Bible via Genesis 6 and Ephesians 6:12. Additionally, the part about the Zuni people being taken and a contract made with the spirits is highly similar to the Book of Enoch. Note that in these scriptural (and non-scriptural, but still in line with the Bible) references it’s clear that these are spiritual beings of some sort.

Genesis 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Jude 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Book of Enoch Chapter 6 – 8 where the fallen angels [spirituals beings] take women in exchange for teaching people skills.

[Chapter 6]
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
[Chapter 7]
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

The explanation of Kachinas as spirits makes a lot more sense than them being aliens. After all, why would advanced “alien” beings use sacrifices, dances, chants and rituals as a method of contact?


(Ancient Aliens) 37:00 Cliff - If you listen to a lot of religious chants and songs and prayer, that’s all they talk about. They’re talking about space, they’re talking about out there in the universe where they came from. So they depict it on a rock wall here. But the actual meaning of it is somewhere more profound, and more complex than that.


For a non-Zuni, this is not an easy thing to investigate. Mr. Mahooty could well be making up any old thing, and no one would know any better. For the sake of argument, assume he’s correct and the Zuni chants have something to do with space. That does not necessarily indicate they are singing about people from there. And even if they did believe that, it doesn’t make it true. Recall in Greek and Roman mythology that all of the planets in our solar system are named after gods (and were likely thought to be such) so any prayers to them wouldn’t indicate that visitors came from there.

The stars play a more diverse role than just where a god came from or what star they were. For example the Hopi, a tribe similar in many respects to the Zuni in that they have a Kachina system and cultural similarities. Some of their songs must be performed in coordination with the position of certain stars in certain points of the sky.

“There are seven of these songs, and we must be careful to sing them before the seven stars [Pleiades?) ed.]disappear. By the time the harvest song is finished the [Orion’s belt] is upside down.” Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters, Page 149.

To be fair, the Hopi do seem to believe there is life on other planets. They send their prayers to the Kachinas there using eagle feathers.

“For it was this great proud bird who first welcomed mankind to this Fourth World and gave them his feathers…the feathers which will carry our prayerful messages aloft to other planets and stars where life exists, and which in turn demand of us the good thoughts that keep our own planet in order.” Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters, Page 209.

The key element of this though is the fact that the eagles are killed in a sacrifice before being used as a collect call to the stars. Again, begging the question of why advanced beings in the galaxy can only be contacted through rituals. Ritual sacrifice of an eagle is an odd way to establish an interstellar phone line. It makes no sense for alien beings, but perfect sense to contact spirits.


37:35 Narrator - Drawings made in 1200 BC yet they appear to depict modern space travelers and their vehicles.

both pics are a direct snapshot of the Ancient Aliens TV show.


The first picture is quite unclear, and not to disparage Zuni artwork, looks like stick people. Identifying them as spacemen is sheer guesswork.

Everyone ought to know what a modern space suit looks like, if not, just google it.

Their second picture, is claimed to look like a modern spacecraft. Most people know what the space shuttle looks like, and the new privatized Virgin Galactic and SpaceX ships are your basic rocket/plane shape. In short, they look nothing like the Zuni depiction. Furthermore, it’s not flat enough to be the classic “flying saucer.” It’s not clear what it is, but a modern spacecraft isn’t likely. In my upcoming cave painting article, we'll see that petroglyphs aren't always what they seem.

Additionally, Clifford Mahooty stated in his interview with Open Minds that the “visitors” just appeared like in Star Trek. No mention of a ship was made in explaining how the Kachinas came here.


You can see the little figure here that has a dome and eyes. Something like a nose.

Photo from Ancient Aliens program


That’s all well and good, but if that dome is a helmet, the eyes and nose shouldn’t be visible, or if the dome is clear enough to see eyes and a nose, the head should also be fully visible. Again, the upcoming petroglyph/cave painting article will delve into stuff like this.


38:00 David Childress – they may well be actual descriptions and depictions of some kind of god from outerspace, some ancient astronaut. And when you go around, say the Zuni pueblo, that’s what they’ll tell you those petroglyphs are. Even the Zunis themselves call them the space men.


The depictions on the rocks may well depict gods, but again this does not necessitate that they are from space. Previously, Clifford Mahooty indicated that the visitors just materialized, leaving no way of knowing for sure where the beings came from.

The only the Zuni that for sure espouse this opinion that these are space beings are Dan Simplicio and Clifford Mahooty. We have no way of knowing what other Zunis believe. Even if they believe there is some star connection, that does not mean they believe the star connection is alien-related. The Greeks and Romans believed the planets of our solar system to be gods, but in no way did they believe they were aliens.


It has a diamond shaped body. That’s very different looking than what humans are.

photo captured from my TV screen while watching Ancient Aliens


Making an argument that this is an alien is highly absurd. This “diamond shaped body” looks like a few wavy lines. It in no way resembles an attempt to capture a being of any sort. As will be covered in my article on glyphs and paintings, it's probably a written symbol for directions.


39:00 Cliff: Now usually they’re called UFOs, but in the Zuni way, we’ve always been taught that they’re the keepers of the upper world, which means space. The sky people, beings of ET origin. This is still within our mythology and religious practices today.


As mentioned previously, the Zuni religious practices are the key element in determining if these Kachinas are truly aliens, or merely spiritual beings. The sacrifice of eagles, and performing dances and rituals are not advanced ways to contact beings on another planet.

Furthermore, Mahooty admitted that calling these Kachinas space beings was merely his own interpretation of the what he was taught.

52:35 – 55:00 Open Minds

CM – My research and my interpretation of what the grandfathers told me was that these things, the Kachinas were made to look like what used to come on the earth…They are here, but they are invisible during the ceremonies and even on a daily basis. The Zuni believe in the spirits being here with them all the time. The Zuni also believe that the Kachinas are here and the only reason that they appear in the plaza as we represent them, at that time is you become them, you become them as a spirit and in what their rituals call for, you become them. It’s like an altered state kind of involvement. When you’re performing those ceremonies, you have to go through many different rituals that primarily the festing part, the cleansing part, the mindset, all that before you go in there…this information was given me by my grandfathers and my elders in their own concept and their own language.

(8/15/11 Open Minds Radio Interview with Clifford Mahooty, Zuni elder and member of the Kachina society. He has also been featured on “Ancient Aliens.”


Narrator: Like most Indian tribes, the Zunis call the sky people Kachinas. According to the Zuni creation story, the Kachina gods came down from the heavens to lead the Zunis to earth through a special portal.


The only Natives that call their gods Kachinas is the Pueblo people in the southwest like the Zuni and Hopi. Other tribes do have “sky people,” aka gods, but so does every other major religion in the world. Even in the Bible, angels are referred to as stars (especially the book of Revelation) and there are stars in the sky. The term Kachina, and this sort of Kachina system seems to be limited to the Pueblo peoples.

According to the Zuni Kachina story, Awonawilona’s two sons (who seem mostly human, and not Kachina-like) led people through a portal (which was in the ground, not the sky) into the present world.

“Awonawilona took pity on the people and his two sons were stirred to lead them to the daylight world. The sons, who have human features, located the opening to the fourth world in the southwest.”

There’s no indication that these sons are Kachinas, though they have some connection with the sky as the morning and evening stars. Again, identifying a god with a star or planet is not uncommon in mythology.


39:38 Cliff Mahooty: That’s the entrance to the fourth world, or the underworld. That’s a representation of where the Kachinas come and go. According to the mythology, the Zunis were brought forth into the world of light which is where we are at today, by what I would interpret as ET beings from the universe.


The entrance to the fourth world is where the Zuni believe they came from, which was underground. If Kachinas are space aliens, or from out in the universe, why do they come and go through a hole in the ground? As far as being led out of the fourth world the Zuni believe it was the sons of Awonawilona, who appear human, and not Kachinas, for all intents and purposes.

We’re relying on Mahooty’s biased interpretation of these Kachinas as space beings. When his earlier claims are examined, the Kachinas are obviously spirit beings and not aliens.


40:26 – Childress, Georgio and others show several Kachinas and claim they are wearing helmets and a suit and a helmet with a visor. “They really look like ancient astronauts”


When it comes to the Kachinas being ancient astronauts, a few things need to be considered. Firstly, Clifford Mahooty has explained that the Kachinas arrive here pretty much via teleportation, or as one materializing from another dimension. Ie, a spirit manifesting. He also has emphasized in his interview with Open Minds that the Kachinas are basically spirits and that his own interpretation is that they are space beings.

But for the sake of argument, let’s presume that these Kachinas are flesh and blood space visitors.

The claim is that they look like they are wearing a helmet with a visor. In human space endeavors, why is a helmet and suit needed? To provide us with air and protect us from the vacuum of space or dangerous atmosphere. If the Kachinas beam here as Mahooty has said, and presumably do not travel through space via ship, the need for a suit becomes somewhat moot. The helmet and the visor serve no purpose. Even if they came on a ship and later beamed here, a suit is not a necessity like in Star Trek.

Unless of course, the Kachina is from a planet where they breathe methane or something besides oxygen, then a helmet and suit would be necessary. In this situation, the logical conclusion is that if they need a helmet, they need a complete suit. But when you look at the Kachinas, many of them have a lot of skin exposed. Especially two that are presented as likely astronauts, the Long Hair Girl (far left) and Crow Mother (far right). Feet, arms and other things that ought to be contained within a space suit are exposed to the elements and whatever earth gasses are so toxic to them that they need a helmet. That can’t be a comfortable state to be in.

Clifford Mahooty also stated that many Zuni went with the Kachinas. So many that a mutual agreement had to take place. If the Kachinas need a helmet, wouldn’t the Zuni going with them be in danger?

Some Kachinas appear to be wearing ordinary dresses and skirts over their bodies. In human space suits, the suits are so bulky that wearing additional clothes outside isn’t feasible, nor does it look proper. Mike Nelson of Mystery Science Theater 3000 once said that many of the movie monsters that he made fun of on the show would have been slightly more convincing if they weren’t wearing slacks. So too, Kachina would make more believable aliens in space suits if their skin wasn’t exposed and they weren’t wearing ponchos and cloaks over their “space suits.”

Some Kachinas. Note the exposed skin (the web link offers a better view):


Photo from my TV of the ancient aliens program

Another facet of the exposed skin in Kachina space-wear, arms and legs aren’t the only things. Just past the 44:50 - 49:58 range in the Open Minds interview, Clifford Mahooty makes a statement that feathers may represent an antenna, or that certain things used on a Kachina doll, may actually represent some anatomical feature of an alien. But if the Kachina is in a suit, the antenna or other appendages should logically be contained within the suit to protect it.

(8/15/11 Open Minds Radio Interview with Clifford Mahooty, Zuni elder and member of the Kachina society. He has also been featured on “Ancient Aliens.”

Lastly, if the Kachinas are in suits, why do they look so wildly different from each other? On earth, different cultures all made space suits, but they generally have pretty consistent appearances. Not one Kachina looks like another and even representations of the same Kachina look different from one another.

Sure, in Zuni belief they could be from different planets, explaining the different appearances, but then why do they all have the same goal of teaching the Zuni how to live on earth? If they had a united mission, one would expect some sort of consistent element in their “suits.”


41:15 – Bill Birnes PhD. If you look at the poetry, legends and story of Indians from the Southwest. They have the legends of the star people. The star people came to earth, seeded planet earth and they came on flying ships. If you speak to the elders, they will tell you that a lot of us believe in the existence of ET.


This was sort of dealt with in the part where rituals, dances and sacrifices have to be performed to contact the Kachinas. Additionally Mahooty stated that during the ceremonies the participants enter an altered state. He also stated that they materialized and did not mention ships at all.

As far as the elders believing in the existence of ET, that really doesn’t mean much. Many people now claim a belief in ET and it’s no indication that this was accepted in the past by former elders. Mahooty has explicitly stated that he is interpreting as space aliens what the ancestors taught him. There is no solid way to say whether or not previous elders felt the same way.


42:00 Dan Simplicio: Claims his grandparents witnessed a UFO crash on a mesa.


Without more information it’s really impossible to say much about it. There is an incident that happened in Aztec, New Mexico but this is a highly controversial case to begin with and the beings described in this event did not resemble Kachinas in any way. Furthermore, the UFO was a disc, and Kachina “beamed” here to interact with the Pueblo.


42:35 CM: We’re very, very superstitious people. It’s always been in the history of Zuni that they’ve always been here. Even right here where we’re sitting right now. But you just don’t see them, they’re in a different frequency. And those are very, very sacred and very, very secret.


The claim of these beings existing in a different frequency is common in many New Age teachings, especially as it relates to “aliens.” This theory further demonstrates the spiritual reality of the Kachinas as opposed to their supposed ET origins.

Thursday, May 24, 2012

Sky Anchors Away: The Legend(s) of Sky Sailors and Anchors Stuck in Churches

The legends of sky ships getting their anchors stuck on churches, and an unfortunate sailor dying in our thick air trying to get it loose. This will be addressed in the "Ancient Aliens Debunked" due out in September

( and was actually addressed in the most recent issue of (not so) "Open Minds" magazine. While "OM" addresses the sky sailor story and Magonia/Agobard accounts, they do not do so this exhaustively. In addition to the "sky ship is proof of UFOs stories," the sources they quote hold other tales that they forgot to mention. When considering this as proof for UFOs, one must consider what other information Gervase of Tillbury was providing with his "UFO" story.


In his 13th Century historical work titled Otto Imperialia (sp), Gervase Tilbury wrote about an aerial craft over the city of Bristol, England which caught an anchor in a church steeple.

Bill Birnes, Ph.D. He uses specifically the term anchor. Now we don’t know what kind of anchor that is, but a creature, a man climbs out of this craft and tries to free the anchor from the steeple and all the people in the village start stoning him thinking he’s some sort of evil demon.


First, who was Gervase of Tilbury, and what exactly was Otia Imperialia about? Certainly it’s more than a work that can be used by ancient astronaut theorists. As for Gervase, he was sort of a traveling scholar. In short:

Born at Tilbury in Essex, he was a lawyer and cleric who lived most of his life abroad in the service of various rulers and prelates, notably the Emperor Otto IV, for whom he wrote, probably about 1211, a compendium of history, geography, and natural history which he called Otia Imperialia (‘Imperial Relaxations’). One section is devoted to ‘The Marvels of Each Province’ of England, ‘marvels’ (mirabilia) being defined as natural phenomena that cannot be explained, as opposed to miracles due to God's intervention. They include items which would now be classed as legend or superstition.

[emphasis added]

Basically, he compiled a lot of dispersed information into one place. Most of it was your average demographic information with a final section devoted to (then) unexplainable events and/or folk tales. The alleged anchor incident was contained not within the “normal parts,” but rather in the folk tale section.

Here is a recounting of Tilbury’s 13th Century Bristol, England event that’s as good as any. The relevant part begins on Page 12, but beginning on Page 10 towards the end may give additional context.

Kelly, Walter K. Curiosities of Indo-European Tradition and Folk-lore. Pg 11-13. Web Based: Published by Adamant Media Corporation, 2006. 25 Sep 2008. (,M1)

The main point to take away from this is that some people, and Gervase of Tilbury, believed there was an additional ocean in the sky and that there were some sort of people that lived up there. They didn’t believe that these people were from space and in at least one case an ordinary sailor was involved “proving” the sky sea theory.

“He [Gervase] believed that two remarkable events had occurred within his lifetime which proved that ‘the sea is higher than the land’, indeed that it is ‘above our habitation… either in or on the air’ (a medieval theory based on the reference in Genesis 1 to ‘waters above the firmament’).”

For contrast, here’s another version of Gervase’s tale, presumably right from Otia Imperiale. Notice that the anchor was caught in a wall, not the steeple and that the sailor “drowned” and was not stoned. Emphasis added.

A strange event in our own times, which is widely known but none the less a cause of wonder, provides proof of the existence of an upper sea overhead. It occurred on a feast day in Britain, while the people were struggling out of their parish church after hearing high mass. The day was very overcast and quite dark on account of the thick clouds. To the people’s amazement, a ship’s anchor was seen caught on a tombstone within the churchyard walls, with its rope stretching up and hanging in the air. They were advancing various opinions on the matter to each other, when after a time they saw the rope move as if it were being worked to pull up the anchor. Since, being caught fast, it would not give way, a sound was heard in the humid air as of sailors struggling to recover the anchor they had cast down.”

Soon, when their efforts proved vain, the sailors sent one of their number down; using the same technique as our sailors here below, he gripped the anchor-rope and climbed down it, swinging one hand over the other. He had already pulled the anchor free, when he was seized by the bystanders. He then expired in the hands of his captors, suffocated by the humidity of our dense air as if he were drowning at sea. The sailors up above wasted an hour, but then, concluding that their companion had drowned, they cut the rope and sailed away, leaving the anchor behind. And so in memory of this event it was fittingly decided that that anchor should be used to make ironwork for the church door, and it is still there for all to see.”

Interestingly, Gervase is rumored to have run across more or less the same story happening in a different place and slightly later on. It’s so similar that the church of the event used the anchor as decorative metalwork. But this time it wasn’t Bristol, but rather Kent. What rotten luck air sailors must have.

Another account which is also often attributed to Gervase allegedly occurred in 1211 (or possibly 1214 — these dates are exceedingly difficult to pin down) in Gravesend, which is located in northwest Kent, England. Again the event involved a group of churchgoers who were attending services. This time the folks claimed to have seen the curious anchor plummet from the heavens and, much like in the Tilbury case, snag itself onto a tombstone in the graveyard which was adjacent to the church.
In another moment that smacks of déjà vu, the parishioners rushed outside to see an inexplicably floating sky ship and what can only be qualified as humanoid sailor leaping over the side. As in the previous account, there is no report of this aeronaut being tethered to the ship — or wearing any sort of protective gear for that matter — as it slowly made its way toward terra firma.
The God fearing mob — no doubt incited by fear or perhaps overcome by the exhilaration of contacting what may well have been construed as a divine life form — attempted to subdue the aeronaut, but he must have heard of the fates of this less fortunate brethren and was too swift and managed to scurry back up the “rope” unharmed. The lucky sky swimmer’s comrades saw what transpired from high above and sagely cut the tether that attached their craft to the trapped anchor and the vehicle “sailed out of sight.”
According to legend a local blacksmith made ornaments from the abandoned anchor that were used to adorn the lectern in the house of worship. An alternate version of the tale suggests a more grim fate for our poor aeronaut and, like his Tilbury counterpart, the being was said to have “drown” in the arms of his assailants, at which point its fellow crew members cut him and the anchor loose. In this version of events the anchor was melted and forged into new hinges for the church doors

Ancient Aliens claimed that the pilot was stoned, but clearly that wasn’t the case if they are referring to the account of Gervase. In the several versions attributed to Gervase, he recorded that the pilot drowned in our heavy atmosphere. Sure, there is mention that the people grabbed him, but no evidence of stoning appears. One wonders if he was an ancient astronaut, why wasn’t he wearing his suit to prevent “drowning?” Especially since so many ancient aliens theorists find evidence for suits everywhere.

Back to the version of the “sky sailor” where he was stoned by the townspeople. That version of the story comes from a UFO book in the 60’s. This book also claims that the anchor was caught in a steeple, and not a stone in the wall. Bill Birnes of Ancient Aliens is quoting the story from the UFO book, not the Otia Imperialia.

1270 A. D. Bristol England: "In Otto Imperialia, Book I, Chapter XIII, Gervase of Tillbury wrote about an aerial craft over a city. The craft caught an anchor in a church steeple and a occupant of the ship scampered down a ladder to free the device. The man was stoned by a crowd and asphyxiated in the earth's atmosphere. The 'demon's body' was said to have been burned." This story is to be found in several UFO books, and is quoted here from Let's Face the Facts about Flying Saucers, (1967) by Warren Smith and Gabriel Green, President of the Amalgamated Flying Saucer Clubs of America.

So far there’s several versions of the Bristol incident, plus the incident in Kent a few years later. Given that there are two identical incidents involving an air sailor some discretion should be applied to accepting how true it is. How about if there was a third one?

In 965 AD, supposedly recorded in an Irish record called “Speculum Regali” is the following story. Emphasis added for the similar elements.

“There happened in the borough of Cloera, one Sunday, while the people were at Mass, a marvel. In this town is a church dedicated to St. Kinarus. It befell that an anchor was dropped from the sky, with a rope attached to it, and one of the flukes caught in the arch above the church door. The people rushed out of the church and saw in the sky a ship with men on board, floating before the anchor cable, and they saw a man leap overboard and jump down to the anchor, as if to release it. He looked as if he were swimming in water. The folk rushed up and tried to seize him; but the Bishop forbade the people to hold the man, for it might kill him, he said. The man was freed, and hurried up to the ship, where the crew cut the rope and the ship sailed out of sight. But the anchor is in the church, and has been there ever since, as a testimony.”

The same story also appears here.

In addition to three nearly identical accounts involving a stuck airship and a church, there’s yet another, account of airship occupants and the threat of stoning. Prior to the Ireland account, in 9th century France, Agobard the Bishop of Lyon was informed of a group of four people, allegedly fallen from the sky, who were to be stoned by some villagers. Although the villagers claimed their captives were from the sky, Agobard dismissed this as nonsense. As a church official, his dismissal of people from the sky calls into question how some might use Genesis 1 as proof of a sea in the sky.

“But we have seen and heard of many people overcome with so much foolishness, made crazy by so much stupidity, that they believe and say that there is a certain region, which is called Magonia, from which ships come in the clouds. In these ships the crops that fell because of hail and were lost in storms are carried back into that region; evidently these aerial sailors make a payment to the storm-makers, and take the grain and other crops. Among those so blinded with profound stupidity that they believe these things could happen we have seen many people in a kind of meeting, exhibiting four captives, three men and one woman, as if they had fallen from these very ships. As I have said, they exhibited these four, who had been chained up for some days, with such a meeting finally assembling in our presence, as if these captives ought to be stoned. But when truth had prevailed, however, after much argument, the people who had exhibited the captives, in accordance with the prophecy (Jeremiah 2:26) ‘were confounded … as the thief is confounded when he is taken.’ ”

Of course the story is incomplete without its alternate ending involving, you guessed it, the alleged aeronauts getting stoned by townsfolk. The author of the Mysterious Universe article compiling the airship stories also finally admits how difficult finding the truth is.

“While most assume that Agobard is claiming to have he stepped in and used his influence to prevent their deaths, some accounts maintain that they were executed all the same , which just goes to show how difficult it is to wrestle the truth from these antiquated accounts.”
David Halperin, a UFO investigator, ties this event with Agobard to another much later event from the 1700’s involving a Turkish, Jewish cult leader. He claims that it was nearly identical to the Agobard event and concludes that they had little to do with space men and more to do with psychological Jungian archetypes (which aren’t without their own faults) and/or spiritual encounters.

Moving back to Gervase of Tilbury’s account. As stated before Gervase seems to have used his “sky sailor” story as proof of a sea in the sky, and of course Ancient Aliens figures this was old time spacemen and that the sea was space.

Certainly, if the ancient astronaut theorists people want to use that story as proof, given its faults as a non-isolated incident, they can. If they do so, then they must also take into account with equal authority the second account mentioned by Gervase as he gives it equal validity to the Bristol event. On Page 13 of Curiosities of Indo-European Tradition and Folk-lore a sailor from Bristol, England dropped his knife overboard into the sea. Lo and behold, his knife then miraculously fell through a skylight in his home and onto his dinner table much to the shock of his wife.


Perhaps the ancient astronaut theorists would also like to include the following accounts as well. After all, they are also in the Otia Imperialia.

Gervase is thus an important source for medieval English folklore. He gives a Gloucestershire variant of the tale of the stolen fairy goblet (cf. Willy Howe); he describes little working goblins in patched clothes, who are generally helpful but also lead travellers astray—clearly akin to Puck and pixies; he tells of a swineherd who entered the Peak cavern and reached a pleasant Otherworld where harvesting was in progress, though in the human world it was winter. He has heard of Arthur's Knights as a ghostly Wild Hunt, and of a demonic hound with fiery jaws appearing during a thunderstorm in a forest near Penrith.

Given that Gervase believed that his accounts proved that there was a literal sea higher up than the ground, using it as proof of ancient astronauts hardly makes it a trustworthy piece of evidence. Especially in light of the fact that nearly the exact same story supposedly happened in so many places throughout different times. There are no less than three events involving the identical story and an additional story or two that are similar enough to raise an eyebrow. The three that are near identical even end in much the same way, even up to the inclusion of the left-behind anchor being used as metalwork for the church. And why would a UFO/alien craft use a contemporary anchor in the first place?

Either these sea-sky pilots have bad luck losing their anchors and sailors at churches and forget their protective suit, or a popular tall-tale it eventually made its rounds through the continent.

Wednesday, May 23, 2012

Flights of Fancy: Debunking Ancient Aliens' Claim of Ancient Flight

In September, Chris White (Revelations Radio Network) will be presenting a video debunking the claims of the Ancient Aliens TV series. In doing this, he put out a call for researchers to help compile the refutations as it really is a huge and daunting project.

Answering the call to join the Christian Justice League, I will share some of the research that I provided. This information will be available in the associated Wiki once the film is released along with the research that other folks provided.

Here's the trailer:

and here's the first claim that i took a look at: Ancient flight via the saqqara bird and gold figures of South America. Georgio, that's a nice fish pin that you wear on the show.

Saqqara bird

“They are not representing birds, but aircraft.”

“The wings are clearly not bird wings.”


(pictures are available by clicking on the links)

The first claim we’ll look at is that the saqqara bird is not representing a bird, but an aircraft. If they are not representing a bird, why give it a bird-shaped head? Why give it eyes? Both of which are highly obvious in the below photos. If it’s the model of life-sized glide, why is their no cockpit present in the saqqara bird?

Today, we do have aircraft that implement an animal face on the plane or unusual nose art, but that added décor never changes the shape of the aircraft. If the saqqara bird represents an aircraft and not a bird, why make nose of the plane bird-like?

The claim that the wings are not bird’s wings doesn’t necessarily prove they are airplane wings either. The face, while a bird’s face is somewhat simplified, or stylized one could expect the same in regards to the wings.

Furthermore, the wings are not uniform. Martin Gregorie, a model airplane enthusiast, concluded

“the original bird's wings are of unequal length and are not level with the rest of the body and the vertical tail is actually set at an angle.”

“It’s a very Modern aerodynamic design”

“It is a highly developed glider. This is the design we use today.”


If you see the above picture, the bird “glider” is very thick. Very heavy looking. If the saqqara bird is representing a glider, then this design is not terribly aerodynamic, or modern. Modern gliders are very thin. This is very likely to reduce drag. The more plane there is, the more drag there is and the less flight time there will be.

“Sports gliders benefit from creating the least drag for any given amount of lift, and this is best achieved with long, thin wings and a fully faired narrow cockpit. Aircraft with these features are able to climb efficiently in rising air and can glide long distances at high speed with a minimum loss of height in between.”

If the saqqara bird is using modern design and is a glider, why is there so much surface area?

Even in modern glider designs that don’t incorporate the minimalist designs, the wings are largely exaggerated to reduce the rate of sinking once the craft is in the air.

“The chips on the tail, possibly indicate an elevator had been present.”


The chips on the tail are on only one side of the tail. If a tail had broken off, one would expect the chips to be on both sides and of larger size. Take a look at the chips from the history channel special. Then, my crude snapshot of the other side as it was presented on the Ancient Aliens. Notice, there do not appear to be any chips on the other side of the tale. You may have to see it in the show for yourself, but there are no chips on the other side.


“Scale model, they put it into a wind tunnel. Tests show it would fly.”

“The only thing missing and preventing flight, is lack of an elevator rear stabilizing rudder.”


In the “Ancient Aliens” special, in order to get the saqqara bird to be air worthy, they had to add a tale to stabilize the craft. However, merely adding a tail is not enough to make this bird fly.

Here are some quotes from articles that have picked that theory apart.

"Wow - those guys put a model of the bird through a wind tunnel AND a computer simulation and they say it can fly! That's conclusive proof, right? Wrong. Watch the video again and pay attention - these guys aren't testing the Saqqara Bird, they're testing a balsa wood model fitted with a large horizontal tail surface. The real bird has no horizontal tail at all and is made from sycamore, which is something like three times as dense as balsa wood. The real conclusion here is that if the Saqqara Bird was made of different material and actually shaped like an airplane, it could fly. How much does that prove?"

"More to the point, a few years ago model airplane enthusiast Martin Gregorie tested the flight capabilities of a model of the Saqqara Bird and his results were far less enthusiastic. Unlike our friends with the History Channel, Gregorie notes that the original bird's wings are of unequal length and are not level with the rest of the body and the vertical tail is actually set at an angle."
Martin Gregorie, the model airplane enthusiast mentioned earlier, seems to have tried a number of wings and tails in an attempt to make an exact duplicate of the saqqara bird fly. Most of these configurations were unsuccessful. In order to get it to fly, he had to manipulate the tail stabilizer, which the saqqara bird lacks completely.
Below are the results of Gregorie’s flight.
"The model will not fly without a tail or with the scale tail fitted. The result is always a pitch up if the model is launched at its gliding speed and a pitch down if launched faster, followed by a tumbling motion. Adding ballast to the nose to move the balance point forward has no effect. The result is the same with either wing fitted, except that when the scale wing is fitted the model often tumbles laterally as well.
The model does make a splendid weather vane if it is mounted on a pivot set into its belly under the midpoint of the wing."
"Fitting the big tail enables the model to glide. Both wings require up trim on the tail, i.e. the rear of the tail must be raised. The result is a fast, not very flat glide."
"The performance of this model proves conclusively that the Saqqara Bird never flew. It is totally unstable without a tailplane. A cursory inspection of the photos shows that it never had one.
Even after a tailplane was fitted the glide performance was disappointing. The Saqqara Bird was certainly never a test piece for a low speed, cargo carrying aircraft.
The model makes an excellent weather vane. It points directly and steadily into the wind and does not veer from side to side. In my opinion the Saqqara Bird was probably made as a child's toy or a weather vane. As such it is an interesting artifact and is certainly not an example of Pharaonic High-tech or ancient lost knowledge.”
Another article mentioning Martin Gregorie's Catchpenny article.

“Used a catapult to launch it. Modern gliders sometimes use a bungee cord.”

“Scientifics of Egyptology told us that such a bird could be launched via catapult.”


The most popular method of glider launch seems to be using a tow plane, then releasing the glider high in the air. Bungee cords are sometimes used to launch gliders, but that was more common in gliding’s early days and less so now.

“Elastic ropes (known as bungees) are occasionally used at some sites to launch gliders from slopes, if there is sufficient wind blowing up the hill. Bungee launching was the predominant method of launching early gliders.”

Launching this glider via ancient catapult seems precarious at best.

“I don't know about you, but I'm picturing some ancient Egyptian screaming his lungs out as his catapult propelled glider hurdles away, spinning head over tail until it smacks into a pyramid. This Dr. Eenboom seriously believes that you could get some sort of controlled lift off using an ancient catapult!

The show, at this point, displays a hokey computer animation of an ancient glider achieving perfect liftoff by this method. That seems extremely unlikely to me. But if anybody out there wants to actually test this and perhaps prove me wrong, why not try doing a small scale experiment? Get yourself a model catapult and a paper airplane... then let me know if you get anywhere with that.

And what exactly are the "scientifics of Egyptology"? “

An expert model airplane enthusiast has pretty much proven the saqqara bird to be incapable of flight. Launching it via primitive catapult seems a tad ridiculous in light of the fact that it isn’t even airworthy.

Regarding the science of ancient Egypt. While they did have impressive inventions such as paper and building the pyramids, keep in mind their science was not without faults. If you don’t believe me, let me paraphrase Chuck Missler and advise you to ask your doctor to try one of these medical treatments.

“Practices such as applying cow dung to wounds, ear piercing, tattooing, and chronic ear infections were important factors in developing tetanus.[39] Frank J. Snoek wrote that Egyptian medicine used fly specks, lizard blood, swine teeth, and other such remedies which he believes could have been harmful.”


One researcher believes aliens came and gave us technology.


If aliens gave us the technology to make a people-sized saqqara bird, the Egyptians should have asked for their money back since it never flew. For the sake of argument though, even IF the saqqara bird were capable of flight, which it’s not, aliens are not necessary for giving us the technology. The Wright brothers need no introduction, having invented powered flight. They developed their powered plane by trial and error and it was the culmination of a number of gliders. Nowhere in their invention of the airplane was there a need for an alien intervention. In the unlikely event that the Egyptians ever developed air travel, human ingenuity and perseverance go a long way.

It wouldn’t take aliens to tell the Wright brothers to look at all of the attempts at flight that failed and try something else from there. Same thing with the ancient Egyptians. They would have likely used trial and error as well, only they would have been in the beginning stages of any trials.


“Philip coppens said “It’s a fact that our ancestors were more intelligent and had more technological capabilities.”

“Graham Hancock: There is a forgotten episode of history. As a species we have amnesia. Ancient times people were visited by beings not of earth and they gave us technologies, etc.”


(NOT Really sure what direction to go here. One could refute this, but their statements are mere opinion backed by little facts.)

The statement that our ancestors were more intelligent and had more technological capabilities is not especially easy to prove or disprove. Indeed, they did build ancient monuments, but this is not necessarily proof of greater intelligence. Earlier, ancient Egyptian medical practices (involving animal parts and excrement) clearly demonstrate a primitive understanding of basic medical facts. If they were more intelligent, why not have more advance medicine?

This is also a claim that ancient astronaut theorists flip-flop on. On one hand, they want us to believe that yes, our ancestors were super advanced and used high technology given to us by aliens. This technology allegedly enabled us to fly, build monuments with lasers and hover technology. But in the next breath, they want us to believe that these same ancestors were too stupid to understand what the aliens were and called them gods and worshipped them. They claim that the technology was understood as magic.

It can’t be both ways. If they were smart enough to use advanced technology, they would understand it wasn’t magic. If we were smarter long ago, the aliens could easily have explained that they were aliens, not gods and our ancestors would have understood.

Graham Hancock’s statement that there is a forgotten episode of history and that we have culturally forgotten is hard to prove or disprove. Just how far back is he talking about? Written records seemingly go back 5,000 – 7,000 years back and this is

The Egyptian history goes back to 3,100 BC ( that’s about 5,000 years.

Chinese history, one of the most documented cultures goes back to about 7,000 BC. ( Some of this is just evidence of farming, while later into the 5,000 – 6,000 BC range, they had their earliest forms of writing. 2,100 BC gives us probably the beginning of actual records for history.

This article gives a basic run down of when written records for a number of cultures began.

The 3,100 BC date for ancient Egypt fits sort of well with the accepted dating of the pyramids. Not that everything Zahi Hawass or “experts” say should be taken as absolutely true, most of what they say is within a believable scope.

They also emphasize that New Agers and others want an older date for pyramids and want alien involvement and so, stretch facts a bit. This author even went to Egypt and studied hoping to find Edgar Cayce’s claims (whatever those were) were true, but has been convinced of a much younger age for the pyramids than most AA proponents want to throw out.

Pre-Colombian Gold Figures


Pre-colombia, Tolima made many gold figures. Funerary objects.
They found about a dozen eerily reminiscent of modern fighter jet. (They have components of jets.)

Georgio said some were like modern fighter jets.

Compared to space shuttle, the basic shape is similar. Wing shape is similar.


To best understand what the gold figures found in the Magdalena River valley actually represent, one must understand the culture that made them. The Tolima lived near the Magdalena river, which they relied upon for food and apparently had extensive access to gold.

“the Magdalena valley was inhabited by communities of farmers, goldsmiths and potters. Some of these built their settlements on the broad alluvial terraces that this fast-flowing river formed.”
The Tolima eventually stayed in one spot and stopped their nomadic ways for the most part. This allowed them to farm and also take up more complex art forms like pottery and proably more detailed gold work.

“the nomadic groups living along the banks of the middle section of the River Magdalena were still experimenting with tuber and maize crops.”

In summary, the Tolima were sort of nomadic, and eventually farmers and artists. Nothing in their lifestyle suggests any needs for airplanes, much less being familiar with the laws of flight. Their lifestyle kept them in close touch with nature (river animals: fish, alligators; jungle animals: insects and bats). As one would expect, the things that impacted their daily life would likely be the focus of their artwork.

And it was.

One common animal depicted in Tolima art is the bat. Preceding Batman by centuries, human figures were made with bat features. By doing this, they felt somehow that humans would obtain the bat-like abilities. In addition to this, regular old bats may have initially inspired the creation of gold animals in the first place.

“The golden bat is known by this name because when its skin comes into contact with pollen, it turns yellow. This fact could have been the inspiration for the examples that are made of high quality gold.”

But why do the wings look like aircraft and shuttle wings?

“One might argue that it is impressively aerodynamic, like an airplane. In response i say, are birds not impressively aerodynamic? Isn’t it a simpler assumption to assume that it was modeled after a bird?...the vertically oriented tail at the rear of the bird figurine is not a trait of birds and is the only anomoly present, which like the fish figure’s abnormal horizontal tail and doubled pectoral fins, is easily attributable to the creative liberties taken by the Tolima.”

And here’s a fighter jet and space shuttle.

Fighter jet

Space shuttle

The better question might be, why do only two out of many depict what looks to be aircraft, when the rest are clearly animals?

Why would a culture that makes gold animals randomly put in two aircraft? In the top picture, the closest object seems to be an alligator or similar animal. Which makes sense since they were a regular feature in Tolima life. The rest are probably birds and fish of various sorts.

The left most figure could be a stingray.

Many of these animals are hard to identify, but would hardly be airworthy. The reason for this difficulty is that some of the figures are amalgams of multiple animals and heavily stylized.

“Their goldsmiths have left us figures of insects and small animals cast in gold, some fantastic, others naturalistic. There are fish, lizards, crickets or beings that boast features of various species, like the famous "little planes", which have the head and mouth of a jaguar, the wings of a bird and the tail of a fish”

The two most famous“airplanes” will be easily explained and actually do have easily explainable animals. More on that later.

With nature playing such a critical role in inspiring Tolima art, it is absurd to assume that something as fanciful as airplanes were being depicted. While the below quote makes some assumptions that may not necessarily be true (the Wright’s flew without sheet metal and the like) but the questions they ask and conclusion are sound. Why didn’t these supposed aircraft leave a large impression than a few figures?

“this idea starts to fall apart as soon as you think of how a South American culture would practically make airplanes.
For one, making the plane itself could be an issue. Metallurgy was not unknown to South American cultures by any means but most objects produced were ornamental or small practical things like knives. For a plane, you’d need to produce sheet metal, screws, have some sort of welding/soldering tools of which, as far as I know, there has been no archaeological evidence of. I’m also not sure how well bronze would work as your main building element since steel didn’t make it to the Americas until Spain brought it along.
An internal combustion engine could also be useful. And what about fuel? Did the peoples of South America have an industrial revolution a thousand years before anyone else? All archaeological evidence seems to point towards no. You’d think that sort of technology would leave a larger mark than some 2 inch gold ornaments.
Landing the plane could also be an issue what with the unpopularity of the wheel in the Americas. Without large draft animals, the wheel never really caught on in Meso/South America. The extreme highs and lows of the area made transport on foot the easiest and quickest way to get from point A to point B. Unless, of course, you were flying your plane that ran on magical fuel with a non-existent engine that could withstand a gliding landing.
Another problem with this entire theory is that all the speculation is centered on just one of the so-called ‘models’. Of the seven that I’ve seen, not one of them is alike. What seem to be jet-like wings on one becomes curved swoops or scalloped edges in another. The pointed beak of the main ‘airplane’ (the one that was scaled up to fly) is the exception rather than the rule with blunt, rounded heads on the rest. To base an entire theory on just the proportions of one of the artifacts isn’t sound. Just because one flew doesn’t mean the others will. Nevermind that a sample size of seven is too small to draw any sort of conclusion anyway (providing another reason for the lack of legitimate knowledge on these artifacts.)”

Keep in mind to make these two “planes” fly, they had to shave off the frills from the wings, get rid of the holes in the wings, add flaps to the wings and add an engine and landing gear.


More examples of other Tolima Gold work. Note a gold bird-like creature in the same vein as the “airplanes.” Also note, that human figures are flat and highy stylized. Using the same logic apllied to the “airplanes” are we to assume that the Tolima were flat or excessively skinny?

“Later, fish, lizards, crickets and fantastic beings in which features of various species were combined were cast in gold. Symmetrical pendants evoke man in different degrees of schematization, while men, bats and feline figures merge in a continuous stream of transformations…the human body is restricted to two dimensions but is set in multiple symmetries.”

The Tolima art was very stylized as evidenced by the human figures in the below links. The second link shows evidence of highly stylized humans that were used in funeral rituals.

Artwork from the Zenu people for contrast. The Zenu lived on the coast of the ocean while the Tolima lived more south.

A Zenu cat. It has holes in its back and a dinosaur tail. Just more evidence that artistic liberties were taken with all gold figures in that general area.

another photo of the objects


Georgio, not a single insect has it’s wings at the bottom.

Georgio: They have nothing in common with anything similar in nature.


Firstly, neither of the two figures that Georgio thinks are planes are depicting insects. There may be others, but this one may be one of the few actually depicting an insect. Perhaps a moth. Perhaps a bat.

These are the craft that Georgio seems to be referring to.

And his claim is that they have nothing in common with an animal found in nature.

Alright, let’s play.

One possibility, for the first one is that it’s a Sphingid moth.

Based on the wing shape, that’s possible. But it does seem that this would be upside down. The head and eyes seem to be here.

What else could it be?

A lithoxus lithoides from Guyana.

“That’s an armored catfish. And what’s that? It’s found on the north coast of South America? In fact, a catfish could easily explain a lot of the features: the upright tail fin, the two bulging eyes on top, the flat underbelly, the “wings” or fins in two pairs along the side.
But hah, the gold artifacts don’t have a dorsal fin, you say? Well, when you commonly see an Plecostomus (“algae eater”) or Loricariidae (catfish) resting on the bottom of a river, its top fin is flat on its body. And for crying out loud; these are very simplified tiny pieces of jewelry!”

the catfish perhaps fits this one as well, but this guy has another fish that’s a little closer to a match.

A flying fish.

Flying fish live near the coast of Venezuela, somewhat far from the Tolima, however not so far that it would be unbelievable they would know about them.

Although these are highly stylized, we can be sure that they are meant to be real animals. The below figure, while slightly exaggerated seams to represent a real fish. The artist perhaps was depicting a guitar fish and took some liberties in making it.

The left most figure could be a stingray.


Georgio: Pre-colombian culture knew about aerodynamics

2 examples from across the world, that are aerodynamic defies coincidence.


In the overview of the Tolima culture presented earlier, it’s plain to see that they were an agricultural society which relied on the river for much of their livelihood. We also saw that there was little evidence to support them using or needing aircraft for any part of their existence. If they had developed aircraft, why would they make only two models (widely different) among dozens of animals? Where is the other evidence for the use of aircraft? How did they land the planes? Were there hangars?

The evidence that these two “airplanes” are anything but animals, amongst many other animals is overwhelming.

The second claim that two examples of aerodynamic craft from across the world defies coincidence. The saqqara bird was proven to be completely un-airworthy. Comparing the Tolima objects to the Saqqara bird in light of that does nothing for the credibility of this claim.

Despite the fact that neither the Tolima objects nor the saqqara bird are airworthy, they do have a lot in common. Both are representations of animals. Both require extensive modification to be able to fly. And both objects are being used to promote the false claim that the ancients knew how to fly and were given this knowledge by aliens.