Sunday, May 27, 2012

Starstruck: Are the Kachinas Really Ancient Aliens or Beings From the Stars?


34:00 - Chris O’Brien: “the Zuni are a very interesting culture in that they’re one of the few cultures that really have not opened up to the rest of the world about their star knowledge traditions. Most of this type of information is very closely held by the Natives. I really find it intriguing that this is the time in history that we’re now we’re starting to learn more and more about their star knowledge.


Exactly what “star knowledge” is it that we’re learning from the Zuni people? If it’s very closely held, why share it now and with Ancient Aliens theorists? Why not instead share it with peer reviewed astronomers?

If the Zuni (and other tribes) had star knowledge that was accurate in any way, where are the all of the Native astronomers? Dennis Lamenti of the Navajo/Zuni bemoans the fact that he is only “one among too few Native American astronomers. In fact, as far as he knows, he is the only one in the contiguous United States with or working toward a Ph.D. in astronomy.”

Surely with the Zuni’s advanced star knowledge, they would be able to contribute greatly to this field. In fact, Lamenti is going out of his way to reach out to any Native student who wants to follow in his foot steps. This is the perfect chance for any Zuni to put their star knowledge to good use. Yet, no one seems to have stepped up.

“Lamenti would like to make himself available to any Native American students interested in astronomy or Native students who would like to discuss their challenges, need advice getting into graduate school, or just staying in school. He can be contacted through Indiana University’s webpage”

This is the perfect opportunity for Zuni star knowledge to make its debut.


Narrator: The tribe’s creators and protectors are supernatural beings from the sky.


The Zuni, like other tribes including the Hopi and some others believe that people lived underground in the dark. This is considered the previous world, and prior to that, people lived in other less desirable worlds. They then believe they were led out into the present world by the creator whom they call Awonawilona. Awonawilona was not from the sky, but rather the Zuni believe that he created the sky and earth, etc. In short, Awonawilona is the closest thing to the pre-existant creator God as revealed in the Bible (though not personalized), though there are differences to be sure. In no way does Awonawilona come from the sky.

Awonawilona does create two humans or human-like beings, brothers but the origin of the human race itself is ambiguous. Most of the Zuni myths that are available seem to insinuate that people and other beings already existed somehow, then were led out of the underground by Awonawilona’s sons. Again, nowhere is it told that humans were created by people from the sky.

“Creation culminates as the Twins lead humans and creatures out of Mother Earth and into the Daylight World.”


36:00 Dan Simplicio (SP?) – [referring to a petroglyph] This one’s kind of interesting here. I’d imagine it was created in the last century. From this design you can see the star figure. Celestial images are often times depicted in a lot of our cultural pictographs. This is one where it depicts this star. It could be the supernova of the crab nebula.


It certainly isn’t a stretch that any civilization would record a supernova. Why not? It’s a memorable event, and many cultures have recorded such things. The problem here is Simplicio’s comment. He believed that the glyph was made within the last century or so and that it depicts the supernova of the Crab Nebula. How he came to that conclusion is anyone’s guess, but the problem with this theory though is that this supernova happened in 1054 and not in the last century. The only explanation is that he is mistaken about what it represents, or it was a “remake” of an older glyph.


Cliff: Our Zuni mythology in the prayer system in the ritualistic protocols talk about these people that came over here and told us actually how to live our lives. As beings, guide people.


The people that Clifford Mahooty is referring to are Kachinas, and his theory (and that of others) is that the Kachinas were aliens.

There’s really no problem with this claim, that the Zuni were contacted by beings. Due to the prayer and ritualistic nature of Zuni interaction with their “visitors,” the most simple conclusion to reach is that the Zuni have not contacted alien beings, but rather spirits. In fact, Clifford Mahooty, who was featured on Ancient Aliens, says as much in an interview on the Open Minds Radio Podcast.

Take a look at his statements keeping an eye out for bits that would deal with a spiritual phenomena. Mr. Mahooty adds further clarification to emphasize that he believes the beings are from space. Emphasis added.

Time stamp: 34:50 – 36:00

Alejandro Rojas: Now the Kachinas, would those be similar to saints I guess? Just a lot of different types of Kachinas that have different meanings?

Clifford Mahooty: Yes, if you look at some of the others, like for example, the sainthood. Or if you look at Greek mythology, they have the gods of war or the gods of this and that. But then the Kachinas represent many, many different forms of what their orders are. And also for the way that the Zuni has to communicate with the other than things than here on planet earth. So they are also treated as messengers. Looked upon as messengers or keepers of the ways of how the Zuni is supposed to be carrying out their lives here on this planet.”

Time stamp: 38:02 – 38:42

CM: It’s a very complex ceremony. The way to understand it, is that you have to really understand the ritual. Because a lot of these are sung in a chant type form. The rituals that are carried out and the Kachinas are dressed like those visitors that came to our planet.

Time stamp: 44:50 - 49:58 [note that he doesn’t answer the question about what the other Zunis believe]

AR: When you had mentioned earlier that the Kachinas, that part of these rituals were about remembering the visitors coming here from space, do the Zuni then, as a group believe that these were people from elsewhere coming to teach and share with the humans?

CM: The original visitors were the actual beings that came from different parts of the universe. The way that they used to come here was that, and I’ve stated this many times, it’s like that “Star Trek” remember when they, that beam me up Scotty type thing. They would appear from a different dimension and appear here. When they performed whatever they need to do, to carry on for mankind, for the Zuni mankind to carry on their lives here, then after that they would disappear again.

According to my teachings of the Kachina priesthood, this went on for a number of years until the population was declining at a rate. Because these people, whether it was by abduction, or whether it was by people just falling in love with those beings that came over here to perform their ceremonies with song, dance and good rituals, I mean blessings. Every culture whether it be the four-legged creatures for food, like the deer. They were also the providers of the rain. The rain is a number one requirement in the Zuni world for agriculture. So when these people, things, beings, whatever used to come here to be among the Zuni people, they were losing too many. They had a summit maybe. Between those gods, they used to call them gods. They’re referred to as gods and the priesthood of the villages at that time, there were many. There’s got to be some way we have to adopt here so we don’t go through this whole thing of abduction or losing our community.

AR: the Zunis were losing people?

CM: Yes. The Zunis were losing people because these people would go with them. The visitors, they were from the different world.

AR: They fell in love with the visitors? Become friends or somehow the visitors would take them with?

CM: Yeah. Or another way I would interpret it is that they were abducted.

AR: Taken? Stolen?

CM: Yeah, just taken, yes. So, when they came into this truce. The brotherhood or whatever. The hieracrchy of the Kachinas and the Zuni humans at that time. They reverted to a Kachina system, but there were several different things. This was sort of a contract. There were certain things that had to be abided by, and certain things that they would provide, and things that the Zuni would have to provide. It was a contract type approach. It has overtones of what the theory of the Eisenhower connection with the aliens at that time. So you give us this, here’s what you’re gonna do, we here on the planet will do this, and we’ll have this type of a requirement on both sides. And this is according to my teachings of the Zuni elders, which was given to them by their elders. I don’t know how far back. That’s when they came up with the Kachina system.

Later on at 52:35 – 55:00

CM – My research and my interpretation of what the grandfathers told me was that these things, the Kachinas were made to look like what used to come on the earth…They are here, but they are invisible during the ceremonies and even on a daily basis. The Zuni believe in the spirits being here with them all the time. The Zuni also believe that the Kachinas are here and the only reason that they appear in the plaza as we represent them, at that time is you become them, you become them as a spirit and in what their rituals call for, you become them. It’s like an altered state kind of involvement. When you’re performing those ceremonies, you have to go through many different rituals that primarily the festing part, the cleansing part, the mindset, all that before you go in there…this information was given me by my grandfathers and my elders in their own concept and their own language.

(8/15/11 Open Minds Radio Interview with Clifford Mahooty, Zuni elder and member of the Kachina society. He has also been featured on “Ancient Aliens.”

This sounds a lot less like alien visitors and quite a bit like Dr. Michael Heiser’s “Divine Council” ( writings and also sounds quite a bit like what spirits are described as in the Bible via Genesis 6 and Ephesians 6:12. Additionally, the part about the Zuni people being taken and a contract made with the spirits is highly similar to the Book of Enoch. Note that in these scriptural (and non-scriptural, but still in line with the Bible) references it’s clear that these are spiritual beings of some sort.

Genesis 6:2

That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they [were] fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

Ephesians 6:12

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places].

Jude 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Book of Enoch Chapter 6 – 8 where the fallen angels [spirituals beings] take women in exchange for teaching people skills.

[Chapter 6]
1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.' And Semjaza, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not 4 indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations 5 not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves 6 by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn 7 and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And these are the names of their leaders: Samlazaz, their leader, Araklba, Rameel, Kokablel, Tamlel, Ramlel, Danel, Ezeqeel, Baraqijal, 8 Asael, Armaros, Batarel, Ananel, Zaqiel, Samsapeel, Satarel, Turel, Jomjael, Sariel. These are their chiefs of tens.
[Chapter 7]
1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they 3 became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed 4 all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against 5 them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and 6 fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.
[Chapter 8]
1 And Azazel taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all 2 colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they 3 were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjaza taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, 'Armaros the resolving of enchantments, Baraqijal (taught) astrology, Kokabel the constellations, Ezeqeel the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiel the signs of the earth, Shamsiel the signs of the sun, and Sariel the course of the moon. And as men perished, they cried, and their cry went up to heaven . . .

The explanation of Kachinas as spirits makes a lot more sense than them being aliens. After all, why would advanced “alien” beings use sacrifices, dances, chants and rituals as a method of contact?


(Ancient Aliens) 37:00 Cliff - If you listen to a lot of religious chants and songs and prayer, that’s all they talk about. They’re talking about space, they’re talking about out there in the universe where they came from. So they depict it on a rock wall here. But the actual meaning of it is somewhere more profound, and more complex than that.


For a non-Zuni, this is not an easy thing to investigate. Mr. Mahooty could well be making up any old thing, and no one would know any better. For the sake of argument, assume he’s correct and the Zuni chants have something to do with space. That does not necessarily indicate they are singing about people from there. And even if they did believe that, it doesn’t make it true. Recall in Greek and Roman mythology that all of the planets in our solar system are named after gods (and were likely thought to be such) so any prayers to them wouldn’t indicate that visitors came from there.

The stars play a more diverse role than just where a god came from or what star they were. For example the Hopi, a tribe similar in many respects to the Zuni in that they have a Kachina system and cultural similarities. Some of their songs must be performed in coordination with the position of certain stars in certain points of the sky.

“There are seven of these songs, and we must be careful to sing them before the seven stars [Pleiades?) ed.]disappear. By the time the harvest song is finished the [Orion’s belt] is upside down.” Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters, Page 149.

To be fair, the Hopi do seem to believe there is life on other planets. They send their prayers to the Kachinas there using eagle feathers.

“For it was this great proud bird who first welcomed mankind to this Fourth World and gave them his feathers…the feathers which will carry our prayerful messages aloft to other planets and stars where life exists, and which in turn demand of us the good thoughts that keep our own planet in order.” Book of the Hopi by Frank Waters, Page 209.

The key element of this though is the fact that the eagles are killed in a sacrifice before being used as a collect call to the stars. Again, begging the question of why advanced beings in the galaxy can only be contacted through rituals. Ritual sacrifice of an eagle is an odd way to establish an interstellar phone line. It makes no sense for alien beings, but perfect sense to contact spirits.


37:35 Narrator - Drawings made in 1200 BC yet they appear to depict modern space travelers and their vehicles.

both pics are a direct snapshot of the Ancient Aliens TV show.


The first picture is quite unclear, and not to disparage Zuni artwork, looks like stick people. Identifying them as spacemen is sheer guesswork.

Everyone ought to know what a modern space suit looks like, if not, just google it.

Their second picture, is claimed to look like a modern spacecraft. Most people know what the space shuttle looks like, and the new privatized Virgin Galactic and SpaceX ships are your basic rocket/plane shape. In short, they look nothing like the Zuni depiction. Furthermore, it’s not flat enough to be the classic “flying saucer.” It’s not clear what it is, but a modern spacecraft isn’t likely. In my upcoming cave painting article, we'll see that petroglyphs aren't always what they seem.

Additionally, Clifford Mahooty stated in his interview with Open Minds that the “visitors” just appeared like in Star Trek. No mention of a ship was made in explaining how the Kachinas came here.


You can see the little figure here that has a dome and eyes. Something like a nose.

Photo from Ancient Aliens program


That’s all well and good, but if that dome is a helmet, the eyes and nose shouldn’t be visible, or if the dome is clear enough to see eyes and a nose, the head should also be fully visible. Again, the upcoming petroglyph/cave painting article will delve into stuff like this.


38:00 David Childress – they may well be actual descriptions and depictions of some kind of god from outerspace, some ancient astronaut. And when you go around, say the Zuni pueblo, that’s what they’ll tell you those petroglyphs are. Even the Zunis themselves call them the space men.


The depictions on the rocks may well depict gods, but again this does not necessitate that they are from space. Previously, Clifford Mahooty indicated that the visitors just materialized, leaving no way of knowing for sure where the beings came from.

The only the Zuni that for sure espouse this opinion that these are space beings are Dan Simplicio and Clifford Mahooty. We have no way of knowing what other Zunis believe. Even if they believe there is some star connection, that does not mean they believe the star connection is alien-related. The Greeks and Romans believed the planets of our solar system to be gods, but in no way did they believe they were aliens.


It has a diamond shaped body. That’s very different looking than what humans are.

photo captured from my TV screen while watching Ancient Aliens


Making an argument that this is an alien is highly absurd. This “diamond shaped body” looks like a few wavy lines. It in no way resembles an attempt to capture a being of any sort. As will be covered in my article on glyphs and paintings, it's probably a written symbol for directions.


39:00 Cliff: Now usually they’re called UFOs, but in the Zuni way, we’ve always been taught that they’re the keepers of the upper world, which means space. The sky people, beings of ET origin. This is still within our mythology and religious practices today.


As mentioned previously, the Zuni religious practices are the key element in determining if these Kachinas are truly aliens, or merely spiritual beings. The sacrifice of eagles, and performing dances and rituals are not advanced ways to contact beings on another planet.

Furthermore, Mahooty admitted that calling these Kachinas space beings was merely his own interpretation of the what he was taught.

52:35 – 55:00 Open Minds

CM – My research and my interpretation of what the grandfathers told me was that these things, the Kachinas were made to look like what used to come on the earth…They are here, but they are invisible during the ceremonies and even on a daily basis. The Zuni believe in the spirits being here with them all the time. The Zuni also believe that the Kachinas are here and the only reason that they appear in the plaza as we represent them, at that time is you become them, you become them as a spirit and in what their rituals call for, you become them. It’s like an altered state kind of involvement. When you’re performing those ceremonies, you have to go through many different rituals that primarily the festing part, the cleansing part, the mindset, all that before you go in there…this information was given me by my grandfathers and my elders in their own concept and their own language.

(8/15/11 Open Minds Radio Interview with Clifford Mahooty, Zuni elder and member of the Kachina society. He has also been featured on “Ancient Aliens.”


Narrator: Like most Indian tribes, the Zunis call the sky people Kachinas. According to the Zuni creation story, the Kachina gods came down from the heavens to lead the Zunis to earth through a special portal.


The only Natives that call their gods Kachinas is the Pueblo people in the southwest like the Zuni and Hopi. Other tribes do have “sky people,” aka gods, but so does every other major religion in the world. Even in the Bible, angels are referred to as stars (especially the book of Revelation) and there are stars in the sky. The term Kachina, and this sort of Kachina system seems to be limited to the Pueblo peoples.

According to the Zuni Kachina story, Awonawilona’s two sons (who seem mostly human, and not Kachina-like) led people through a portal (which was in the ground, not the sky) into the present world.

“Awonawilona took pity on the people and his two sons were stirred to lead them to the daylight world. The sons, who have human features, located the opening to the fourth world in the southwest.”

There’s no indication that these sons are Kachinas, though they have some connection with the sky as the morning and evening stars. Again, identifying a god with a star or planet is not uncommon in mythology.


39:38 Cliff Mahooty: That’s the entrance to the fourth world, or the underworld. That’s a representation of where the Kachinas come and go. According to the mythology, the Zunis were brought forth into the world of light which is where we are at today, by what I would interpret as ET beings from the universe.


The entrance to the fourth world is where the Zuni believe they came from, which was underground. If Kachinas are space aliens, or from out in the universe, why do they come and go through a hole in the ground? As far as being led out of the fourth world the Zuni believe it was the sons of Awonawilona, who appear human, and not Kachinas, for all intents and purposes.

We’re relying on Mahooty’s biased interpretation of these Kachinas as space beings. When his earlier claims are examined, the Kachinas are obviously spirit beings and not aliens.


40:26 – Childress, Georgio and others show several Kachinas and claim they are wearing helmets and a suit and a helmet with a visor. “They really look like ancient astronauts”


When it comes to the Kachinas being ancient astronauts, a few things need to be considered. Firstly, Clifford Mahooty has explained that the Kachinas arrive here pretty much via teleportation, or as one materializing from another dimension. Ie, a spirit manifesting. He also has emphasized in his interview with Open Minds that the Kachinas are basically spirits and that his own interpretation is that they are space beings.

But for the sake of argument, let’s presume that these Kachinas are flesh and blood space visitors.

The claim is that they look like they are wearing a helmet with a visor. In human space endeavors, why is a helmet and suit needed? To provide us with air and protect us from the vacuum of space or dangerous atmosphere. If the Kachinas beam here as Mahooty has said, and presumably do not travel through space via ship, the need for a suit becomes somewhat moot. The helmet and the visor serve no purpose. Even if they came on a ship and later beamed here, a suit is not a necessity like in Star Trek.

Unless of course, the Kachina is from a planet where they breathe methane or something besides oxygen, then a helmet and suit would be necessary. In this situation, the logical conclusion is that if they need a helmet, they need a complete suit. But when you look at the Kachinas, many of them have a lot of skin exposed. Especially two that are presented as likely astronauts, the Long Hair Girl (far left) and Crow Mother (far right). Feet, arms and other things that ought to be contained within a space suit are exposed to the elements and whatever earth gasses are so toxic to them that they need a helmet. That can’t be a comfortable state to be in.

Clifford Mahooty also stated that many Zuni went with the Kachinas. So many that a mutual agreement had to take place. If the Kachinas need a helmet, wouldn’t the Zuni going with them be in danger?

Some Kachinas appear to be wearing ordinary dresses and skirts over their bodies. In human space suits, the suits are so bulky that wearing additional clothes outside isn’t feasible, nor does it look proper. Mike Nelson of Mystery Science Theater 3000 once said that many of the movie monsters that he made fun of on the show would have been slightly more convincing if they weren’t wearing slacks. So too, Kachina would make more believable aliens in space suits if their skin wasn’t exposed and they weren’t wearing ponchos and cloaks over their “space suits.”

Some Kachinas. Note the exposed skin (the web link offers a better view):


Photo from my TV of the ancient aliens program

Another facet of the exposed skin in Kachina space-wear, arms and legs aren’t the only things. Just past the 44:50 - 49:58 range in the Open Minds interview, Clifford Mahooty makes a statement that feathers may represent an antenna, or that certain things used on a Kachina doll, may actually represent some anatomical feature of an alien. But if the Kachina is in a suit, the antenna or other appendages should logically be contained within the suit to protect it.

(8/15/11 Open Minds Radio Interview with Clifford Mahooty, Zuni elder and member of the Kachina society. He has also been featured on “Ancient Aliens.”

Lastly, if the Kachinas are in suits, why do they look so wildly different from each other? On earth, different cultures all made space suits, but they generally have pretty consistent appearances. Not one Kachina looks like another and even representations of the same Kachina look different from one another.

Sure, in Zuni belief they could be from different planets, explaining the different appearances, but then why do they all have the same goal of teaching the Zuni how to live on earth? If they had a united mission, one would expect some sort of consistent element in their “suits.”


41:15 – Bill Birnes PhD. If you look at the poetry, legends and story of Indians from the Southwest. They have the legends of the star people. The star people came to earth, seeded planet earth and they came on flying ships. If you speak to the elders, they will tell you that a lot of us believe in the existence of ET.


This was sort of dealt with in the part where rituals, dances and sacrifices have to be performed to contact the Kachinas. Additionally Mahooty stated that during the ceremonies the participants enter an altered state. He also stated that they materialized and did not mention ships at all.

As far as the elders believing in the existence of ET, that really doesn’t mean much. Many people now claim a belief in ET and it’s no indication that this was accepted in the past by former elders. Mahooty has explicitly stated that he is interpreting as space aliens what the ancestors taught him. There is no solid way to say whether or not previous elders felt the same way.


42:00 Dan Simplicio: Claims his grandparents witnessed a UFO crash on a mesa.


Without more information it’s really impossible to say much about it. There is an incident that happened in Aztec, New Mexico but this is a highly controversial case to begin with and the beings described in this event did not resemble Kachinas in any way. Furthermore, the UFO was a disc, and Kachina “beamed” here to interact with the Pueblo.


42:35 CM: We’re very, very superstitious people. It’s always been in the history of Zuni that they’ve always been here. Even right here where we’re sitting right now. But you just don’t see them, they’re in a different frequency. And those are very, very sacred and very, very secret.


The claim of these beings existing in a different frequency is common in many New Age teachings, especially as it relates to “aliens.” This theory further demonstrates the spiritual reality of the Kachinas as opposed to their supposed ET origins.


  1. Wow, that is a lot of refutations! The ancient aliens thing really just keeps marching forward, doesn't it? (that upcoming movie Prometheus being just one more example....)

    You certainly did an excellent job of exposing the discrepancies between the actual beliefs of the Zuni people, and the notion that these are physical beings from a distant planet, needing actual spacesuits and all the rest...

    However, I think more and more I'm coming to a place where I'm not sure how much it matters that we can prove, time and time again, to people that these are spiritual beings and not "aliens". I know that Chris White is coming out with his "Ancient Aliens Debunked" film pretty soon, and that a lot of people are pretty excited about it. But I guess I'm just starting to wonder if simply trying to "debunk" it all is really the best approach. I mean, in the end, isn't the "ancient aliens gospel" just as much a web of deception as the "original" shamanic tribal beliefs? Isn't all this new emphasis on "aliens" just an attempt to take the old stuff, give it an "upgrade", so that it can be used to deceive a whole new generation?

    And what if, (like many people such as Doug Hamp have suggested), all the "alien stuff" we have seen over the last century or so really is to prepare for a "disclosure event" at some point? Wouldn't that event involve some kind of "hardware" (ships, helmets, technology, whatever)? I mean, even if it's just a hoax disclosure, people would still buy the idea that they are physical beings. (but probably also believe that all the spiritual/interdimensional aspects were due to their advanced technology, or enlightened brains, or whatever)

    I dunno, not really sure what I'm trying to say. I guess I'm sort of just pondering the irony. We have these folks on the one side trying to make connections between ancient shamanic/pagan cultures and modern aliens, then on the other side, there are Christians (maybe not a ton, but some) who are trying to deny those connections, showing that these beings are spiritual rather than just "spacemen". The ironic part for me is that we who understand the demonic agenda behind ALL of it, (both the ancient legends and the modern UFO phenomena) actually do believe that ancient "gods/spirits/beings" and the modern "aliens" are one and the same... (did that make any sense?)

    I just it's just kinda weird to me. Ok. Sorry for the ramble. Interested in your thoughts tho...


    1. Thanks for the kudos and comment. I sort of agree with you that all of the debunking in general. Every time one of us comes out with a through debunking. They come back and refute that. Chris White has had this happen with one of his efforts (not sure which one). I do like doing it, and I do think it has an outreach potential, but I am starting to grow bored with/change my focus from debunking lies (which are endless) and focusing on the one thing that is true. And that's Jesus Christ. So hopefully I'll do a little of both.

      As far as aliens being spiritual/physical and how that plays out into a disclosure event. I really am on the fence here. You probly know of the debate over abductions being physical or wholly spiritual from a few years back. I think (personal opinion here) that any hardware that shows up (craft, beings, etc) will be manmade and controlled by agents in the spiritual world. Tesla allegedly created floating craft, and many parties have allegedly made "UFOs" so human made hardware is out there, and can be used to help perpetrate a spiritual "Great Deception". I think it's too early to chuck any option of the table.

      Which reinforces my point, staying focused on Jesus.